Advice on getting a new computer.

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Re: Advice on getting a new computer.

Postby stoneman » Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:58 am

SkaBob wrote:
JHern wrote:and keep in mind that with a Mac, you get the very best components and quality


Sorry, you're wrong. Apples specs are below those of high end PC laptops, and they're using the same CPU, RAM, hard drives, I/O controllers, network adapters, video chips, motherboard chispets, you name it...IT'S THE SAME HARDWARE, Apple just uses slower bits than the high end PC laptops use. They don't use the higher speeds of the Core 2 CPU line (they're not even using the new i series CPUs yet, and their roadmap shows they'll be using Core 2 chips through at least mid 2010), they're using DDR2-1066 ram when faster RAM is available at nominal additional cost (less than $10 per 2 gigs at RETAIL, no less wholesale), they use smaller hard drives (all respectable higher end PC laptops have 500GB or more hard drives if they're not using SSDs, the MacBook Pro maxes out at what, 250GB?), they're using the mid-range video chipset in the GeForce lineup, which in some of their models is actually 2 or 3 generations behind the current models...and so on.

JHern wrote:The display itself is worth about $600-700 alone (super high quality, high contrast, brilliant color, etc.).


Here you show your ignorance of the computer industry. Did you know there are only TWO manufacturers of LCD panels for computers, and that Apple uses the same panel as Sony, several Dells, various midrange LCD monitors for desktops and even a few budget brands?

What differs is the backlighting, color control and accelleration bits - and Apple actually doesn't rate the highest on those, Viewsonic usually tops the market in speed and several Gateway monitors have ranked higher than Apple displays on color control.

So what you're saying is that if Apple's screen is "worth" about $600-700 (which it's not, the panel is about $150 and the backlighting and other hardware is about $150-200), then Apple lacks the purchasing power to even come close to competing with their competitors that sell the same monitor.

JHern wrote: The keyboard is the coolest, most responsive and accurate thing I've ever touched (probably worth $200 by itself).


A keyboad worth $200? See, this is where Mac zealotry really starts to lose it's shine with me...a keyboard is a $50 item, tops (less on a laptop). If you're willing to pay 4 times that for the same keyboard everyone's copied these days, you really should just give me the money instead. You'll get just as much out of it.

JHern wrote:The disc drive does everything, even wipes my ass.


It's just a slot-loading DVD-RW. It's made by Pioneer, not Apple.

JHern wrote:Powerful and high quality/low maintenance wifi, bluetooth, audio, video, and other capabilities abound.


The wifi chipset is a Broadcomm BCM4322 on most models, which is common throughout the industry (many $300 netbooks use the same wifi chipset as my sister's Macbook Pro).

The bluetooth is also a generic chipset, though I'll admit I don't know whose because I could give shit zero about bluetooth.

The audio is also generic, using one of the chipsets recommended by Intel for any motherboard using the 965/ICHx series chipsets - most commonly a Yamaha, Realtek or Via audio chip but I see that Apple has also used chipsets by Texas Instruments and SigmaTel.

The video chip in the current Macbook Pro is a GeForce 9400 - NOT EVEN MIDRANGE in the 9000 series GeForce lineup, it's actually one of the budget GPUs, and isn't considered "game-worthy". It's more commonly seen on the PC side in the low-end to mid-range office laptops.

JHern wrote:The processor slightly slower, memory smaller, and hard drive space diminished. But that gets it down to $1000-ish (plus or minus a couple hundred depending on options). And it will still be a far better machine than any PC laptop. Period.


Seriously, do you hear youself? You're saying that your PC based laptop is better than any PC based laptop, and the only concrete claims you have that carry any weight are that the case is nice and the touchpad is good.

JHern wrote:Every time I see somebody with a PC laptop any more I feel kind of embarrassed for them.


Every time I see some Mac zealot going off like they're using some God-box, when they're just using a PC with a chip that lets the OS/X install CD recognize it as "Apple branded hardware", I'm more than kind of embarassed for them.

JHern wrote:These are such shabby, clunky, noisy pieces of garbage.


The only thing that could possibly be considered "shabby" when comparing a PC laptop to an Apple is the housing, and several PC laptop manufacturers are using aluminum and magnesium housings now, so that's rapidly becoming a non-issue. Most PC laptops are smaller and lighter than MacBooks, so unless you're drooling all over your MacBook Fitsinamanillaenvelope, that point is utterly moot. PCs and Macs use the same fans for cooling - because they're cooling the same hardware, they use the same hard drives and the same optical drives...where exactly do you perceive the extra noise to be coming from?

While we're on the subject of comparing the two, what about those apple Batteries? Y'know, the ones that swelled up and started popping? Sure, Dell got bad press for them too, but Dell at least replaced them rather than screwing their customers over for the better part of a year denying there was anything wrong.

JHern wrote:People who think PCs and Macs are at all comparable have absolutely no ground to stand on.


No, you and all the other Mac Zealots have absolutely no ground to stand on, and you're just running your mouth so you can feel smugly superior about having blown several thousand dollars on the same hardware that comes in a $800 PC laptop.

Does Windows suck? Sure, but there are actually games released for it, so it's what goes on my gaming PC (my netbook runs linux). Is Mac OS/X superior to Linux? Vaguely in terms of usability and simplicity, if you lack the technical compotence to be able to understand Linux.

Don't even pretend for an instant OS/X doesn't have problems, either.

For all your nattering about how great the Airport wifi and bluetooth stuff works, why did so many people have Leopard utterly break their functionality?

Why did so many OS/X users have trouble even getting Leopard to install?

Why did so many OS/X users have Leopard utterly hose their data when they did something so simple as copy a file from one partition to another?

Why did so many OS/X users start getting Blue Screens and crashes after installing Leopard (or even on their new Leopard based Apple systems)?

Why did Leopard cause so many graphics glitches and locks when using more of the capabilities of the video chipsets to to hardware rendering of the UI?

If OS/X is so secure, why did Leopard have such a severe bug at release that the firewall would be turned completely off by default? Why did it prevent so many legitimate third-party apps from accessing the internet (including Firefox and World of Warcraft) when it was enabled? Hardly the "trouble free" firewall Apple touts.

JHern wrote:Anyways, enough on this topic for me. It is pointless to argue, since it is a rather obvious thing.


It's rather obvious that you have only a cursory understanding of the inner workings of a computer, so it may seem obvious to you that your Ford Pinto is better than my Ford Pinto, but when it all comes down to dust you're doing nothing but spewing mindless, uninformed zealotry and in the end, we're both just driving Ford Pintos with different colors of paint.

Class dismissed.

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(sorry to continue the derailment of this thread, OP, but mac zealots really need to be informed sometimes)


That was great. :lol:
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Re: Advice on getting a new computer.

Postby JimW » Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:11 am

I should show this to my fiancee, she just bought a Mac laptop :lol:
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Re: Advice on getting a new computer.

Postby SkaBob » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:58 am

I'm just disappointed that my sad mac image doesn't work anymore :(

That really was the icing on that whole post!
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Re: Advice on getting a new computer.

Postby Jsw » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:32 pm

I'm on the market for a new computer, I'm probably going to have a friend build it, I already have the monitor so that should save me some $$$. I basically just want something for general purpose, but with a good "Bang for your buck" Graphics card so I can play Starcraft 2/ Diablo III when they come out. Any suggestions?

And by the way SkaBob, I haven't seen ownage quite like that in some time - that was hilarious :lol: .

*edit* Just an observation into the whole Mac VS. PC thing. It reminds me a lot of the "Harley VS Metric(Honda, Suzuki, etc)" argument that pops a lot on motorcycle forums and watering holes world-wide.

*IMO ALERT*

Mac = Harley. VERY pricey for what you get, You are basically paying a premium for the "name" and what we'll call the "fit & finish"(how solid the product feels and looks in your hands). Their products are also VERY expensive to purchase accessories. They are Marketed well, they look and feel great.

Metrics = PCs. These dominate the overall market, and they run the gamut. You can get one for as weak or as powerful as you can want. Often finding more bang for your buck when compared side-by-side to the Harley-Davidsons. However most lack the styling or little odds and ends that make the machine feel more personalized or enjoyable. However if you're willing to be thrifty and build one for yourself, or build certain

Macs & Harleys have done a great job marketing themselves as the "cool way to break away from the pack", they both go a long way to ensure that regardless of performance or reliability, their product just feels superior in your hands. They have both managed to corner a niche of their respective markets.

Just an interesting comparison, since I'm researching a lot into motorcycles right now and after reading this I've noticed some parallels. 8) It seems to me that you cant really go wrong with either - just do your research and apply those to what you really want to do with your machine.
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Re: Advice on getting a new computer.

Postby SkaBob » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:15 pm

Jsw wrote:And by the way SkaBob, I haven't seen ownage quite like that in some time - that was hilarious :lol: .


:twisted:

Jsw wrote:Macs & Harleys have done a great job marketing themselves as the "cool way to break away from the pack", they both go a long way to ensure that regardless of performance or reliability, their product just feels superior in your hands. They have both managed to corner a niche of their respective markets.


I'll give Macs that they don't require NEARLY the maintenance and rebuild that Harleys do (or used to...is Winter still engine rebuild season for every Harley?), but yeah...you really are paying for the logo. Sony does the same thing on the PC side.

As far as a SC2/D3 PC, I stand by my assertion that you should never have to pay more than $800 for a gaming PC if you already have the monitor. And really, $800 is if you want to step up further than you need to in terms of video card and fancy case and cooling.

My game box cost me a grand total of about $550 for a Core2Quad 2.6Ghz, 2GB of DDR2-800 RAM, a Radeon HD3850 and a kickin' power supply - which are the important parts of any game box.

That $550 also includes the hard drive and DVD burner I put in it when I built it, and the case I used...I think the only parts not included in it were the mouse and keyboard. There's nothing I can't play at a good enough resolution not to mind with all the pretty turned on.

If I had closer to $1000 I'd probably go for 4GB of ram and a better video card. The 3850 was midrange when it was released, I'd probably go for whatever the current equivalent of the 3870x2 is...multi-GPU single card...fuck 2 graphics cards, it makes the motherboard too expensive for no performance gains. At any rate, I wouldn't likely spend more than $200 for the video card. Usually I don't spend more than $100 on video card, but if I really had a hankering for some new PC games, I'd probably splurge a little on that more than anything else.
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Re: Advice on getting a new computer.

Postby Lithicon » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:43 pm

I'm not trying to start more of an argument than is already started. But, to be honest. I feel that even Pc's are more customizable, and if you want to spend that extra money, you can just get farther with pc's. While quantity doesn't equal quality. Doing a bit of research will go much farther. I've built every pc that I've purchased myself, and wouldn't have it any other way. I've built cheap, and I've built rock solid expensive machines. I mentioned my cheap system in another post.

My current gaming rig is a water cooled labyrinth of hoses and heavy copper/nickel heatsinks.
This thing weighs almost 90lbs. At the time it was the second best gaming cpu, graphics card and ram on the market. I had well over $2500 in this thing. Including hardware, and case, water cooling and everything. I'm probably really close to 3k.

What it's worth now is a total other story, would I pay that again? In hardware not exactly. I've wised up, and found that cheaper alternatives to the most hyped hardware is just as good. As far as the case and cooling alternatives, is where most of my money was and yes, I'd easily invest this much into a case to sustain a gaming pc. Do you have to, of course not. My pc is now almost 3 years old, so you can only imagine how much something like this depreciates. But, it'll easily last me, until I choose to upgrade. If that were to be a full system upgrade, mobo, ram cpu, graphics. or just a graphics card.

As far as customizing, you have to be able to do research. If you're willing, there is so much more you can do with a pc, and if you want to invest the money. The quality will ultimately show in the end. You can dump a lot of money in a mac, but honestly I still feel you're getting something that if you put the same amount into a PC. You could get a better PC in the end, quality and power.

Jsw wrote: Macs & Harleys have done a great job marketing themselves as the "cool way to break away from the pack", they both go a long way to ensure that regardless of performance or reliability, their product just feels superior in your hands. They have both managed to corner a niche of their respective markets.


I completely agree with this, they found a niche. But, we all know that just because a market is cornered with a certain "niche" does not mean it's superior in actuality.
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Re: Advice on getting a new computer.

Postby Beable » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:16 am

Jsw wrote:I'm on the market for a new computer, I'm probably going to have a friend build it, I already have the monitor so that should save me some $$$. I basically just want something for general purpose, but with a good "Bang for your buck" Graphics card so I can play Starcraft 2/ Diablo III when they come out. Any suggestions?



When I built my last machine, my thought process was something like: 1) lurk on Tom's Hardware for a few days to get some specs 2) build a spreadsheet of decently reviewed parts on newegg and then 3) post my thoughts on Tom's Hardware to make sure I wasn't doing anything idiotic. That forum is really good for helping you build a great machine within your budget.
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Re: Advice on getting a new computer.

Postby Solty » Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:49 am

Beable wrote:
Jsw wrote:I'm on the market for a new computer, I'm probably going to have a friend build it, I already have the monitor so that should save me some $$$. I basically just want something for general purpose, but with a good "Bang for your buck" Graphics card so I can play Starcraft 2/ Diablo III when they come out. Any suggestions?



When I built my last machine, my thought process was something like: 1) lurk on Tom's Hardware for a few days to get some specs 2) build a spreadsheet of decently reviewed parts on newegg and then 3) post my thoughts on Tom's Hardware to make sure I wasn't doing anything idiotic. That forum is really good for helping you build a great machine within your budget.



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