Gays serving openly in the military

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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Jesse B 707 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:25 am

lefty-hyzer wrote:
SkaBob wrote:
lefty-hyzer wrote:the studies you are speaking of are actually proving otherwise, sir. nothing similar to the "gay gene" has been identified, and it won't be, because it's a choice.


How then do you explain animals that have been found to have homosexual tendencies/preferences (there are several studies out now that go into detail on this if you'd care to look them up)? Animals act on an instinctual level, where just about all of their behaviour exists to keep the pack stable, allow them to eat, and most importantly allow them to reproduce.

Are these animals saying "Gee, that boy wolf is having sex with that other boy wolf. I think that's what I want to do, too!"? Are they seeing homosexual humans having sex and choosing to do the same? Do they think they're going to produce offspring with another male? The hugely vast majority of animals understand instinctively that when you want a kid, you stick your weewee in a female's hoohaa. If it was mere confusion, we'd see animals having gay sex all the time, rather than it being a minority event.

I mean, if there's no genetic component, what inspiration would animals have to boink their own gender?

And I'm not even touching reptiles that can change their gender in order to help the population continue...







hahahahaha, if you can find some documented proof of any male animal, humping another male animal (and i mean penetration, all k9s, and some other mammals, even females, will "hump" to show dominance), that would be pretty funny. you can't though.

gender benders don't count in the challenge.

Ok now you're either just trolling or super stupid.
examples of homosexuality can be found in over 90% of mammal species
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby lefty-hyzer » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:27 am

can honestly say that homosexuality in people, or animals, hasn't warranted any searches on the internet from me, so yes, that is news.

still doesn't confirm/deny anything.

do monkeys do it too?


everyone poops, eh?


edit: i already told you i was trolling...
Last edited by lefty-hyzer on Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby discspeed » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:28 am

STOP FEEDING THE TROLL!!!
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Frank Delicious » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:29 am

No trolling this thread please. If you want to participate in the discussion that's fine but please don't make one or two sentence smart ass posts. And if you do make some smart ass comments you better be able to back them up with something besides more smart ass comments.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby peppermack » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:37 am

lefty-hyzer wrote:can honestly say that homosexuality in people, or animals, hasn't warranted any searches on the internet from me, so yes, that is news.

still doesn't confirm/deny anything.

do monkeys do it too?


everyone poops, eh?


edit: i already told you i was trolling...


Lefty sounds like the people who try to defend Creationism by finding one small detail that can not be fully explained and therefore it discounts the preponderance of evidence that is on the other side of the argument. People really grasp at straws when they have no backing or legitimate basis for their beliefs. They want their way of thinking to be right...when all else fails throw illogical responses to make the discussion go off course and distract from the fact they have nothing to back up their comments.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Frank Delicious » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:41 am

peppermack wrote:Lefty sounds like the people who try to defend Creationism by finding one small detail that can not be fully explained and therefore it discounts the preponderance of evidence that is on the other side of the argument. People really grasp at straws when they have no backing or legitimate basis for their beliefs. They want their way of thinking to be right...when all else fails throw illogical responses to make the discussion go off course and distract from the fact they have nothing to back up their comments.


That argument is called "The God of the gaps".
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Bugbee » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:42 am

The God of Gaps sounds like something a dude wearing an Ed Hardy shirt would call himself.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby lefty-hyzer » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:50 am

nice! the new avatar and name is sweet!!

honestly, i don't think they should be discriminated against, and i don't care enough to really ponder the genetics/choice debate...just messing with you ladies.

the only real argument i see is the whole influx of HIV/AIDs aspect.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Timko » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:03 pm

lefty-hyzer wrote:nice! the new avatar and name is sweet!!


Name and avatar are a total result of this:

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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby SkaBob » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:14 pm

I can't use that excuse, all my code is in perl and javascript lately :cry:
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby lefty-hyzer » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:15 pm

ahhh, if, then = no hair.

i really do kinda like the name and avatar though :lol:

sucks to be in an office :x , i'm about to go get in a couple rounds before more snow hits :D .
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Timko » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:26 pm

SkaBob wrote:I can't use that excuse, all my code is in perl and javascript lately :cry:


Win32 MFC Hell for me.

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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby sunspot » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:54 pm

discspeed wrote:[

I expect there to be more information of the genetetic aspects of this in the near future. As it is there has already been hormones identified that influences gender identity. While obviously we enter our development in utero having chromosomes that determine our gender, there are certain hormones released in the process and timing is very important. These hormones control genital development and ultimately influence gender identity. Basically we all have nothing, or start out female. When certain hormones are released males develop penises and the other differences that make them distinctively male like higher testosterone production. There is a lot of variance, and sometimes these hormones are released late, are absent, etc. The result can be fetuses that have penises, but lack the other hormones that link to being a male and instead have high estrogen instead of testosterone. Some girls produce more testosterone than estrogen, and some of these females have enlarge clitorises that actually resemble penises. With all this variance it is clear that even biological sexuality is not black and white, so it is no surprise that gender identity is not black and white either. The result is people who even as infants/small children have an gender identity contrary to their physical body. In essence, they are born gay. There has been a lot of research supporting this and obviously I summated it in a simplified manner, but you cannot discount that biology has a great influence on this as well as environment.



The main thing to remember is that there hasn't been any conclusive evidence to support a genetic predetermination to homosexuality. Genetic is directly inherited: color of eyes, hair, etc. We all know this. There are, however, things that point to homosexuality being influenced by other factors. The below list is take from Dr. Jeffrey Satinover's book "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth."


Innate
1. Genetic- as mentioned above [ Dr. Satinover lists what we genetic traits to be, i.e., recessive, dominant, etc]

2. Not genetic, but caused by intrauterine influences. These are traits (such as the degree to which a fetus develops masculine or feminine sexual characteristics) that are influenced by various aspects of the environment in the womb. Hormones, infections, exercise, general health, the ingestion of licit or illicit drugs, and many out variables influence this environment. Thus one may be born with a trait that is innate, but not genetic.

Familial-- meaning that they tend to be shared by members of the same family. Familial traits may be:

1 Genetic. Because they have the same parents, brothers and sisters are more likely to share a high percentage of similar genes that would unrelated individuals.

2. Innate, but not genetic. Sharing the same mother, certain typical factors may remain constant or similar for all children born to her. Examples include the effect of her dietary habits on her unborn children, the fact that she smoked, or her general health.

3. Not innate, but environmental. To an extent greater than between individuals from different families, individuals raised in the same family share a similar environment. These include the physical, emotional, and moral influences. Thus family members may share some traits that are neither genetic nor innate but that are nonetheless transmitted from one generation to the next by influence.

Biological

A biological trait is rooted in an organism's physiology, rather than its psychology. With respect to behavioral traits, this distinction suggest a dichotomy comparable to the difference between "hardware" and "software" in the domain of computer science.

1. Genetic
2. Innate but not genetic
3. Environmental and familial but not innate (for example, the effect of a virus that has taken root among the members of a household).
4. Environmental and not familial and possibly innate but maybe not (for example, the effect of a toxin in the environment at large, depending on whether its baleful influence is felt pre- or postnatally).

Environmental

Additionally, the cause of a trait may be purely environmental but not biological-- at least insofar as we do not attend to the biological dimension. Examples include the influence on behavior of the values, standards, habits, economic status, and so on, of a family or society.

Direct versus Indirect

Finally, any of these causes may be direct or indirect. That is,

1. Lead directly to the trait. Whether we are speaking of genetic or nongenetic, innate or noninnate, biological or nonbiological influences, the cause may directly produce the trait itself, as when genes cause blue eyes or when smoke causes a cough.

2. Lead indirectly to the trait. Because of what the influence causes directly, the individual finds it desirable to choose a particular trait. This is seen, for example, when tall athletic individuals become basketball players or when short athletic people become jockeys.

Furthermore, all of these causes may combine and influence one another in highly interdependent ways, mutually influencing each other throughout a lifetime. Behavioral traits, as opposed to simple, single-gene physiologic traits such as eye color, always interact in this way.

In summary, the question concerning all behavioral traits, such as homosexuality, cannot be "Is such and such genetic?" Rather we must ask, "To what extent, respectively, is such and such genetic and nongenetic, innate and noninnate, familial and nonfamilial, environmentally determined and not, direct and indirect? In the course of development, when do which influences dominate and how do their interactions affect one another?" We need to keep this sobering caution in mind as we clarify what medical science has and has not learned about the subject of homosexuality.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby sunspot » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:58 pm

Dr. Satinover was basically saying that there is more than meets the eye and how people say that something is genetic as a knee jerk reaction. He goes on to talk about how we are now starting to understand schizophrenia after 40 years of study and the study of homosexuality is no where near that level of research even though people make claims that homosexuality is genetic.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby discspeed » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:23 pm

Whoa...someone posted something intelligent on this thread. I agree that saying homosexuality is genetic is a knee jerk, oversimplified classification. The genetics I suspect to be involved in all this nonsense are ones that code for turning on/off certain hormones while we are in the womb. The more we learn about genetics, the less "predetermined" they seem to be. For example, some people carry the gene for certain cancers, but it still takes a certain environmental condition to activate that gene. Its all going to be more complicated than our current understanding, but that's the nature of science, and a good reason to be excited about living in the time period that we do. By the time most of us grow old much more should be understood about this.

I think this discussion began on the topic of whether one chooses to be homosexual, and whether it is morally right or wrong. I think its pretty obvious that most do not choose this. I won't say all because I look at sexuality as a continuum with a lot of gray area. There are probably people on the line that go one way or another based on very subjective personal experiences. There are however people that are absolutely gay and know this from a young age and never waver. There are many more who don't come to know this until having some experience and growing old enough to rise above fears and insecurity. Being homosexual is a more difficult path no matter how you look at it as it is still against the norm. Morality is a much more individual thing. I personally support pretty much all gay rights. At worst I would hope someone would at least concede that people being gay does them no harm and adopt at least a tolerant attitude.
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