Religion: Is it cool?

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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby jubuttib » Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:46 pm

veganray wrote:I am aware of that (Genesis 9:3). Further malicious capriciousness on the part that pesky Yahweh, not unlike that cruel, dirty trick he played on Abraham.
That was indeed a nasty trick. I'm also not very fond of Samson's story, since I just can't read the end in a way that doesn't say that suicide strikes are a good thing.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby vonDrehle » Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:57 pm

We all know God has a sense of humor. How else would you describe the lovely designed scrotum we walk around with. You just know he was nudging the angel next to him going "Look what I did there. Yeah, I did it as a joke but they are going out like that."
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby bcr123psu » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:37 pm

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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby vonDrehle » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:46 pm

Sounds about right.

I feel like most Christians view people that don't believe in God as immoral and terrible people. It's like they believe that living without the rules of God you become a bad person. To me it's more like we are all 4th graders in a class room. When the teacher is there everyone is well behaved and does as instructed. When the teacher decides to leave (this is a public school in an inner city) all hell breaks loose except for a few of the kids who just keep doing what they were doing when the teacher was there. Those good ones are the Atheist, they don't need someone to tell them what to do to be "good".

Obviously a broad view of it but it makes sense to me...
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby Apathy » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:03 pm

vonDrehle wrote:Sounds about right.

I feel like most Christians view people that don't believe in God as immoral and terrible people. It's like they believe that living without the rules of God you become a bad person. To me it's more like we are all 4th graders in a class room. When the teacher is there everyone is well behaved and does as instructed. When the teacher decides to leave (this is a public school in an inner city) all hell breaks loose except for a few of the kids who just keep doing what they were doing when the teacher was there. Those good ones are the Atheist, they don't need someone to tell them what to do to be "good".

Obviously a broad view of it but it makes sense to me...



That analogy sucks.. It builds up to sound like the Christians are the good kids, as it sounds like the teacher was going to be Jesus or something. Then it ends with the moral kids just being atheists, which is the exact kind of stereotyping you were bitching about.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby vonDrehle » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:36 pm

Quick on the uptake there aren't you... :)
Last edited by vonDrehle on Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby Flipflat » Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:41 pm

vonDrehle wrote:Sounds about right.

I feel like most Christians view people that don't believe in God as immoral and terrible people.


Really? Most Christians are like this? Do you get out much?
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby vonDrehle » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:14 am

I said I feel like most Christians viewed Atheist in that way. Maybe where you live it is different but around here you say the word Atheist and people will look at you with disdain.



-------------
Intolerance is a bitter beast. There are many groups in America that are subject to discrimination and prejudice, but none are more hated than atheists. Research conducted a couple years ago at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis found that atheists are more distrusted than muslims or homosexuals in the US.
Austin Cline from about.com writes, “Every single study that has ever looked at the issue has revealed massive amounts of bigotry and prejudice against atheists in America. The most recent data shows that atheists are more distrusted and despised than any other minority and that an atheist is the least likely person that Americans would vote for in a presidential election. It’s not just that atheists are hated, though, but also that atheists seem to represent everything about modernity which Americans dislike or fear.
The most recent study was conducted by the University of Minnesota, which found that atheists ranked lower than “Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in ‘sharing their vision of American society.’ Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.” The results from two of the most important questions”
This group does not at all agree with my vision of American society…
Atheist: 39.6%
Muslims: 26.3%
Homosexuals: 22.6%
Hispanics: 20%
Conservative Christians: 13.5%
Recent Immigrants: 12.5%
Jews: 7.6%
I would disapprove if my child wanted to marry a member of this group….
Atheist: 47.6%
Muslim: 33.5%
African-American 27.2%
Asian-Americans: 18.5%
Hispanics: 18.5%
Jews: 11.8%
Conservative Christians: 6.9%
Whites: 2.3%
The degree of this intolerance is a bit surprising. My experience has taught me that atheists tend to be very intelligent, thoughtful people with a high standard of ethics that they carry through to their everyday lives.
So why the fear, why the hatred? This situation is not the norm for most of the planet. Most East and South Asian countries don’t exhibit this fear of atheists or agnostics. In fact, many of these countries have a significant portion of their population that does not believe in any deity.
European countries have large portions of the population that are atheist. There is not the mass discrimination there based on one’s freedom to believe or not to believe. About the only places in the world that tend to have intolerant attitudes are nations with strong monotheistic cultures, such as both latin and anglo America, and the Islamic countries (particularly Turkey).
Considering that atheist nations are more peaceful, it seems particularly odd that there would be a predilection towards animosity towards atheists. When one group is being discriminated against, it detracts from the freedoms of every group. A society based on tolerance must support the rights of minority groups, including atheists.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby sunspot » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:22 am

Working Stiff wrote:If you cherry-pick verses out of the Bible, you get stuff like Leviticus 20:13 that says "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." From that you get Westboro Baptist Church. Most Christians I know agree that Westboro Baptist Church is a bunch of whack-jobs, but Leviticus 20:13 is in the Bible. It's all in how you balance the Old Testament "crime and punishment" message against the New Testament message of forgiveness. The book as a whole is contradictory and that leaves it open to interpretation. His point in the movie was that if you take a more literal interpretation, you can both a) get closer to what the Bible actually says and b) get farther away from what mainstream Christianity preaches.


vondrehle:


The crazies, and Christians that haven't actually read the bible, always take the Gay part out of Leviticus and just ignore the other stuff like:

"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."
"do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material."
"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you."
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."
"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him."

So pretty much no clean shaven men, no poly cotton blend, no lobster, slaves for all, and we are all pretty much dead because everyone has cursed their parents when they were younger.


Below is very short synopsis of the issue:

Isolating these texts or any other texts to suggest that there is a dichotomy between the God of the Old Testament and the New Testament is misleading, let alone tell anything about the context in which the passage is taken. This particular passage in Leviticus (as well as other passages) where given to Israel so that they would be set apart from among the nations that surrounded them. Things that were particular to Israel (what they ate, dress, etc) were strictly custom, however they flowed out of the desire of God for them to be holy just as he was (Leviticus 19). So, there are certain things that are strictly particular to Israel that were true for them in their context that is not for us. There is, however, an implication that is to be derived from reading these types of passages: Christians are to be holy just as God is holy. There a passage in the New Testament (1 Peter 1:13-16) that quotes from the Leviticus concerning Christians being holy as God is holy. There is no mention of Christians observing customary things like dress, shaving etc of the Old Testament. There is a reason for that that I will mention shortly.

As far as Leviticus 20:13 is concern, I think there is a similar understanding of it applying to only Israel however, with a twist. The "twist" is that the consequences of the sin that were going on in the corporate body of Israel were to be metted out by Israel. They were given the responsibility of taken care of what was going on that was wrong in the community. The purpose behind all of this was to be holy just as God is holy. This responsibility given to Israel came from the ten commandments and applied in a specific way. As we see in Israel's history they were not able to fully obey God in what he wanted them to do.

As I mentioned earlier, there was a reason that God gave Israel certain commandments: to set them apart from other nations. However, they were disobedient and became unholy, therefore the culmination of obedience was found in Christ. Christ is the true Israel that judged sin at the cross. Christ was/is the culmination of the Old Testament. The consequences of sin that was supposed to metted out by Israel is truly metted out by Christ for those who believe.

Though we live in a different era and context, there is the same Law that we are judged by if we are not in Christ. We we say no to Christ we say that the Law is not fulfilled in Him and that sin is not defeated. The result of this is that we are still judged by the Law of God, the ten commandments. Though the ten commandments applied differently to Israel in manners of customs and judging, it still applies to us. We have to ask ourselves, "Have I put God first in everything? Have I ever stolen anything? Have I ever lied?" and so on. We find ourselves guilty unless we trust in Christ, who was faithful in all things.

One last thing: we have to be careful not to read things anachronistically. We have to read things in context and see what is going on in current time period and see if there is an overall narrative that is being shown, which happens from the Old Testament to the New.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby sunspot » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:25 am

vonDrehle wrote:Another side topic: Does God acknowledge that there are other gods and he isn't the only one?

Exodus 20:3 - "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."


I think Jeremiah 10:1-16 will help shed some light on this:

1 Hear what the LORD says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says:
“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”

6 No one is like you, LORD;
you are great,
and your name is mighty in power.
7 Who should not fear you,
King of the nations?
This is your due.
Among all the wise leaders of the nations
and in all their kingdoms,
there is no one like you.

8 They are all senseless and foolish;
they are taught by worthless wooden idols.
9 Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish
and gold from Uphaz.
What the craftsman and goldsmith have made
is then dressed in blue and purple—
all made by skilled workers.
10 But the LORD is the true God;
he is the living God, the eternal King.
When he is angry, the earth trembles;
the nations cannot endure his wrath.

11 “Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’”

12 But God made the earth by his power;
he founded the world by his wisdom
and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.
13 When he thunders, the waters in the heavens roar;
he makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth.
He sends lightning with the rain
and brings out the wind from his storehouses.

14 Everyone is senseless and without knowledge;
every goldsmith is shamed by his idols.
The images he makes are a fraud;
they have no breath in them.
15 They are worthless, the objects of mockery;
when their judgment comes, they will perish.
16 He who is the Portion of Jacob is not like these,
for he is the Maker of all things,
including Israel, the people of his inheritance—
the LORD Almighty is his name.
Last edited by sunspot on Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby sunspot » Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:32 am

vonDrehle wrote:Sounds about right.

I feel like most Christians view people that don't believe in God as immoral and terrible people. It's like they believe that living without the rules of God you become a bad person. To me it's more like we are all 4th graders in a class room. When the teacher is there everyone is well behaved and does as instructed. When the teacher decides to leave (this is a public school in an inner city) all hell breaks loose except for a few of the kids who just keep doing what they were doing when the teacher was there. Those good ones are the Atheist, they don't need someone to tell them what to do to be "good".

Obviously a broad view of it but it makes sense to me...


Nope, I don't view anyone differently than I am. The only difference is that God has poured out his mercy and grace and saved me. The truth of the matter is that everyone has sinned and fallen short of God's glory. As Romans 3:23 says, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." No one should boast in their goodness for no one is truly good. If a person is a Christian they should thank God that they have been shown mercy and grace and desire to be obedient in their reconciliation back to God. Before a person comes to Christ they are broken and separated from God. However, God die for those who are broken and sinful. Christ didn't come for those who are considered "righteous." Christ came for those who couldn't keep the Law of God perfectly. Christ was sent for sinners. Anyone who becomes self-righteous has failed to truly see their need for God.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby Apothecary » Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:18 pm

you just believe youre better than they are and that god likes you more than they do and they are going to burn for all eternity. it certainly appears that most christians dont like atheists and think of us as sub-human. thats why atheists are virtually unelectible in american politics, despite our numbers.

oh btw has anyone in the religious camp come up with any evidence that supernatural powers exist and, if so, that their god and/or interpretation of their holy text is the one and only correct one?
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby vonDrehle » Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:47 pm

If the things Leviticus said is only to be applied to Israel at the time period then why are parts of it still apart of the Church now. Why do so many people fall back on the "It's what the bible says" argument for issues such as gays and lesbians?


I feel the main problem when Christians and Atheist try and discus things is Christians always end up quoting things from the bible. From the Atheist view that is like trying to have a discussion about say gay marriage and one person keeps taking quotes from Lord of the Rings. Not meaning offense by saying that but to an Atheist it is just literature.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby jsun3thousand » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:17 am

cultural sociology is your friend, VD. the questions you are asking have answers.
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Re: Religion: Is it cool?

Postby Apothecary » Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:48 am

vonDrehle wrote:IWhy do so many people fall back on the "It's what the bible says" argument for issues such as gays and lesbians?


those are the most fun discussions because they can be framed to focus on all of the wacky shit the bible says a follower is supposed to do but dont (like healing people with zombie jesus magic). then the contradictiary nature and absurdity of the whole damned book is illuminated.
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