NFL rules loophole?

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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby veganray » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:44 pm

But if pass falls incomplete or is intercepted, one of your two or three (depending on how much time was remaining) chances at scoring is burned. So, despite what your apparently misfiring brain "thinks", there IS a problem.
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby nohr » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:53 pm

Pretty sure my brain works.

Veganray come up with a situation where the defense comes out better than the offense.
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby Dbuntu » Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:55 pm

veganray wrote:Who cares if it isn't seen as an honest mistake? .

Well as your rules wiki so clearly dictates, the ref cares. He can decide on the distance penalty. In the case of throwing 53 guys onto the field at once it allows the ref to decide what that distance should be. 5 yards for a "honest mistake" now becomes 30 or 35 or 50?

But you're right it probably doesn't matter.
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby Frank Delicious » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:32 pm

nohr wrote:Pretty sure my brain works.

Veganray come up with a situation where the defense comes out better than the offense.


Well from the superbowl last night where half the time on the clock was wasted and the defense got an extra man to prevent the hail mary from being completed. All that and all they had to do was give up 5 yards that didn't matter at all.
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby nohr » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:50 pm

One thing is for sure either I am crazy or all you cats are.

Given:
1 play = 5 seconds
Game time = 15 seconds

I would expect 3 plays to be done.

If Defense_Cheats_Play1
Game clock = 10 seconds
Plays done = 1
Plays to be completed = 2

If Defense_Cheats_Play2
Game clock = 5 seconds
Plays done = 2
Plays to be completed = 1

If Defense_Cheats_Play3
Game clock = 0 seconds
Plays done = 3
Plays to be completed = 1

Total plays:
Defense_Cheats_play1 = 3
Defense_Cheats_play2 = 3
Defense_Cheats_play3 = 4
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby Frank Delicious » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:58 pm

There doesn't need to be 3 plays total though. In last night's case, the no-play with 12 men took up 8 seconds of a 17 second clock. The play was free for the pats but the extra man gave the Giants extra defensive help deep for that one play and they took almost half the time on the clock off permanently and all they did was move Brady from like the 50 to the 45. The clock is all that mattered in that situation, the Pats needed a touchdown and enough time to run multiple hail mary attempts.
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby garublador » Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:02 pm

veganray wrote:I am quite familiar with the NFL's rules regarding "palpably unfair acts" & a referee's discretion in penalizing them. Per the NFL's definition of such, this situation qualifies as a neither a palpably unfair act by a player (NFL Rule 12-3-3) nor a palpably unfair act by a non-player (NFL Rule 13-1-7). Also, even if it did qualify, the NFL does not allow the referee the leeway to add time to the clock for a palpably unfair act:
Penalty: For a palpably unfair act: Offender may be disqualified. The Referee, after consulting his crew, enforces any such distance penalty as they consider equitable and irrespective of any other specified code penalty. The Referee could award a score. (emphasis added)
I never said there was a way for them to add time back. It's quite obvious from what you quoted that the Referee could make it way more than a 5 yard penalty. 6 seconds for 5 yards may be worth it for the defense but I'm not sure it's a good idea if they can lose 50. The only "loophole" is what actually happened in the game. The defense being giant jerks and purposefully putting way too many players on the field can end up giving the defense the point without them having to accomplish anything according to what you posted. That doesn't seem like much of a loophole to me.
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby Smigles » Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:11 am

The impression I got from the last super bowl is that wasting time wins you games. Time management is a huge factor in this sport it seems.

To be honest, I find it rather boring and IMO they should change the rulework so that wasting time does not benefit you. But that's just me. I have other sports to watch that are more interesting.
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby BearDin » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:50 am

or the defense can intercept and just run around the field and leave only 1 second remaining. End of drive. Free play is crap if the defense has a numbers advantage.
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby veganray » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:40 am

Good point, BearDin. Hadn't noodled that very likely possibility. Kudos!
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby DaPats » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:24 am

Why would the offense run a play with the defense having 53 men on the field when they can just kneel the ball and only 1-2 secs come off the clock. If the defense continues to break the rule, the ref then can enforce an unsportsman like conduct penalty (15yds).
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby veganray » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:30 am

I'm sure the defense would be thrilled with a 1-2 second runoff & loss of down.

I suppose the ref could do that if he felt like it, but the NFL rules don't specifically enumerate that as a foul worthy of "Unsportsmanlike Conduct" in section 12-3 governing unsportsmanlike conduct.
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby CatPredator » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:43 am

veganray wrote:I'm sure the defense would be thrilled with a 1-2 second runoff & loss of down.


There wouldn't be a loss of down because of the defensive penalty. You'd simply lose 1 second off the clock for 5 yards. I suppose if Brady had noticed the 12 defenders he could have spiked the ball and taken the 5 yards. If you keep trying it offenses could get wise and march down the field 5 yards/sec at a time. They would have hit the endzone with plenty of time to spare if the defense kept trying to skew the odds, eh?
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby veganray » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:57 am

Correct. I misspoke on the loss of down.

If the offense was sufficiently far back with a sufficiently low amount of time, the "53 defender" strategy would still be optimal, even in the case of the rare QB shrewd enough to suss out the "kneeldown" strategy on-the-fly teamed with a referee shrewd enough to blow the play dead without down-by-contact & timekeeper sensitive enough to only run off a single second on each iteration.
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Re: NFL rules loophole?

Postby CatPredator » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:03 pm

I do think it makes sense to add a provision for restoring time to the game clock. Perhaps give the offense the option to decline and replay the down from the same spot on the field and clock, or accept and let the time run off.
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