Videos from Tali Open 2008

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Videos from Tali Open 2008

Postby JR » Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:16 am

I'm not totally familiar with Finnish laws but man they're uptight. Hwicha asked me to post the videos I took of him and the other Russian players asked me to put up their videos too. For legal and security reasons I have to edit out sound. I'm not totally sure about the legality of posting a video taken from one person and others being in the video by accident. It may be illegal to post without the consent of everyone easily identifiable in the videos so that'll limit the amount of videos I can post publicly. I also need to convert each video to reasonable file sizes by converting to mp4 format so that'll take time.

I used 320x240@60 FPS for analysis of form and timing and making identification of bystanders more difficult. My camera can take higher resolution video but only at 30 FPS which is much less useful form form and timing analysis. I consider things available to scrutiny at 60 FPS to be so important that it forced the lower resolution. I also had a hunch about the strict laws concerning identification of bystanders.

I'll be posting more videos of more non DGR members of the Russian team that asked me to post the videos. Finnish law forbids me to name them without asking their consent. Hwicha will have to do this for me as I don't have access to the others. They asked me to post but not publicize their names :-( Stupid laws being incomplete and incompatible with reality...

I think it's legal for me to post those videos that have outsiders in them personally person to person. Just not publicize them on the internet for everyone to see.

I hope this link works. Let me know. http://www.mediafire.com/?etoujl2z3zb The site had major troubles with my browser. I couldn't get an account nor download because the site nagged me about cookies and I couldn't find the settings quickly in the new version of my browser.

Hwicha in this video throws with worse form than later on when I didn't get footage of him. His plant steps were occasionally shorter and worked better. I dropped a lot of standard DGR advice on him verbally so it'll take some time to put to use. The same with the other guys. One of them really threw a lot farther on the second day when I got to a bit finer details than the most common stuff. I think that there'll be good results coming from Russia sooner rather than later. On the other hand you have to realize that the sport is young in there.

I'll post more vids as I review the identification of outsiders and convert the videos. You can ask me for the vids containing non intended persons by private message. I'll get back to you on those as soon as I can after putting up the safe vids.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby JR » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:18 am

There are dozens of looks on this thread already. Has anyone managed to get the video?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby roman » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:27 am

I'm downloading the video now, but for whatever it's worth, the laws are the same here in the US. Nobody really follows it and it's not really enforced. The only people that follow the law are professional photographers.

edit - there is only one video of a guy throwing one drive and that's all.
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Postby dgdave » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:10 am

I downloaded it, but all I got was a black screen
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Postby Banzai » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:24 am

[quote="dgdave"]I downloaded it, but all I got was a black screen[/quote]

Same here.
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Postby JR » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:09 pm

roman wrote:I'm downloading the video now, but for whatever it's worth, the laws are the same here in the US. Nobody really follows it and it's not really enforced. The only people that follow the law are professional photographers.

edit - there is only one video of a guy throwing one drive and that's all.


Yes this was the first attempt to put anything up on that site to see if others could get it to work. The guy was Hwicha from this board.

I wouldn't wanna youtube unless absolutely necessary because the original resolution isn't that high quality and any processing is bad. Including making the native MJPEG of my camera into more downloadable mp4 in x264 sub format.

Those that didn't see anything but black I think it could be your software if Roman saw it. x264 is still fairly new. I think VLC supports it natively and Media Player classic plays it back but I might have had to download a codec for it separately.

Try it and if the result is positive the reward is 60 pictures per second video of one of our board members who'd like a review of his throws from others than me as well. I can get round to reviews later after I can make heads and tails of that file sharing site and getting people to see the video. It should be 479 KB long IIRC. Then more videos as I can. Stay tuned.

Please tell me if you can't get the video to work after using another player and/or installing an x264 codec.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby roman » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:11 pm

Yeah, it must be some codec I installed earlier because I noticed the video opened in WMP Classic.
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Postby Aaron_D » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:20 pm

nice rip! the video worked fine for me on my laptop and my desktop
My Drive-> http://www.youtube.com/user/CpJ123?feature=mhw5#p/u/0/OWX_jHYB4bg

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Postby JR » Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:31 am

http://www.mediafire.com/?2noyuxbinnv

Another of the Russian team. Haven't received a permission to tell the name yet.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby JR » Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:10 am

http://www.mediafire.com/?k2xrt0ico1z

This is the guy that was improving fast. After I stopped videoing so I didn't get videos of his best drives. This is the best one I did get. At this point he had some issues that on the best throws were resolved mostly except for not being able to extend wrist and hold on to the disc until the disc was pinched between the index and the thumb at 6 o'clock. Once he can acheive that he'll be most respectable in D. Thereafter it's accuracy and consistency training and he'll be set. He's got a quick arm.

I think he threw about 377' on a later driver that was flat almost fadeless on a lowish line drive so there definetly was a lot of improvement. I'll detail that later.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby JR » Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:59 am

http://www.mediafire.com/?1lylydcsx2z

Hwicha said that the four guys in these videos are the best in Russia except for the best player that was not present.

Luckily none of the outsiders are easily identifiable so I should be safe from the law. Again unfortunately no better videos of this guy either and he did throw much better afterwards. I was engaged otherwise during the best throws of each of the guys and the driving field was full of easily identifiable players when they got some of the pieces together. So I might as well stop posting here because these are the best vids I got of each of them. And all of them were much better later on. I imagine they're even better now that they've had more time to practice. They got so much info that it'll take some time to adopt fully but once they do they should jump up a division in their skills. They all were limited by D but competent in approaches and putts. I see the D limit becoming a non issue fairly quickly.

It's amazing to see how these guys improved with less than 100 drives each on the practice field that I saw. They did play in a tourny that weekend so they got more practice than that and I was with them on Friday and Sunday. So they got more practice on Saturday. But judging by Sunday improvements the learning was insane. They really can change their form quickly. Maybe they didn't have bad habits stuck as bad as I do. So they had the upper hand to me in not having to break old habits that are as ingrained in memory.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby JR » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:33 am

As this is the critique forum and nobody has done anything yet here's my go part 1:

General observations. It might be a symptom of newness of the sport in Russia and despite some people playing abroad many of these guys throw similarly to each other. I suspect they are learning off of each other more than they should've. That's about to change if you guys pitch in :-D

Common things i noticed in the order I think of them: Many times people tilted their heads right in the end of the throw. Don't. It may feel like you're utilizing more muscles to generate power but it's hurting balance and dropping accuracy and consistency. They are on their way to getting a shorter plant step and getting the heart over the right knee as the disc leaves the hand. It's just a matter of practice and time.

They asked me how does one get the plant step more to the right for a hyzer or flat release? And how to get the weight forward? I showed them the flexibility limits and onset of internal resistance from muscles in the hips. I told them about not leaning too far back in the x step by not making it too long. A shuffle step would help with that. The drawback is that everything happens faster so it's more difficult to control your body, form and timing but done right it gives more power. You can push forward with muscle power from the abs and back muscles by bending forward at the waist. Masterbeato's form thread and the recent Avery Jenkins vid of the latest disc golf Monthly plus the grip it to rip it article on the main page give a lot of detail previously covered on the forums about wrist down. Most of which I told at least one of the guys. The longest thrower.

I told them to wait for the arm pull until the last step plants. The clue about getting forward I forgot to tell them is to keep the right knee bent by 20-25 degrees so that once the leg plants your torso is already leaning forwards to the target. You need to wait until the foot touches the ground and it feels counter intuitive to wait in the middle of a throw because the naturally occurring idea that making the disc go from reach back to forwards as fast as possible is just plain wrong once one enters the way the body works and necessity of maximizing the spin on the disc. I trained the wait by mentally telling me to wait, wait wait... until the right foot touches the ground. Then the fun is about to start :-D Minding late power focus.

The keys to getting the right leg planted on the vector you're running on or to the right of that for a flat or hyzer release is to bend the left knee in the x step and push first forward then in the end rotate to the right. All the while keeping the right knee bent. Another thing that helps is to move the right leg to the right side. If you were standing looking at the target the right leg would kick 90 degrees right of the target.

Hwicha asked me about how to get accuracy and I replied consistency. The tourney he was playing has tunnel shots and tight spaces. How nice and straightforward of me :-) They are inseparable because they come from the same source. KIS principle dictates the least moving body parts and least possible amount of motion from each part enough to reach the target. It's analoguous to using the slowest possible disc to reach the target. Why'd you throw that disc at 100 % power when 80 % reaches the target and allows smooth accurate and repeatable motions where you don't have to take your eyes off of the target? So you can aim with both the body and the eyes.

Using much less turn angle on legs and hips away from the target helps a lot. One could even throw with the arm solely. By facing 90 degrees left of the target throwing with the arm without steps and weight transfer. Doesn't get much more minimalistic than that. Naturally distances are slashed but accuracy and repeatability go way up. With practice of course but it's so worth it I promise if you get things right. Even with weight transfer and steps as long as you don't put more than a couple of dozen degrees of leg turn and hip twist. And slow down. Seriously!!! Everything except elbow chop. Doesn't mandate little power from the legs and hips as long as you accelerate quickly but controllably up to 80 % power very late in the throw. Where the real power for the throw both in linear speed and spin rate are generated anyway. You'd be surprised how little distance you lose to fairway drives with halving or taking two thirds off of the turning angles. Don't need that much arm reach back either. Maybe a third less than usually. Experiments for best personal results as always...

That 80 % or even less power means that you can start arm pull at minimal power and use so little power from legs and hips that you can maintain balance even on rough fairways or natural tees easier. Since you're only using full power in the elbow chop the base you're throwing from should be nice accurate and dependable. Once you train the timing and form to be facing the target with both knees, torso and arm extended fully to the target when the disc leaves the fingers. That's a matter of training.

The 100 % power in the elbow chop is mandatory if you wanna get spin on the disc and feeling of the acceleration. Spin is nice because it allows straighter flights with less fear of flipping over and skipping when landing because it allows slower throws. Which minimize tree kicks. Feeling of the acceleration is another thing with which to aim. There's a bit about that in the articles section from Dave Dunipace.

Trying to stop the wrist so that the disc will add to the spin rate as the wrist is extended fully seemed to be a new concept. It's impossible to achieve that bit the attempt makes all the difference once performed right. I'm not there yet especially consistently. This is the most important area of improvement for me. Again for a more thorough explanation I'll refer to the articles section on the main page. These articles get clearer with more knowledge and experience so it's worth it to read these many times over as you progress. I know I didn't get many ideas right on the first reads during the first year I read those :-(

One common issue with the guys messing nose down throws was to start the arm pull low at the reach back and raising the disc elevation by 4"+ at the release. They got that under control fairly well for such a short time of practice I witnessed. I suspect it to become a non issue for line drives shortly based on the rate of improvement. That raising line ain't a problem for hyzer flipped max D s-curves or golfable s-curves with good wrist extension and nose down. More wrist down angle late in the throw helps like Avery Jenkins wrote in the comment section of his blog at www.zonedriven.com.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby JR » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:46 am

That right leg to the right before the plant step is my fine tuning method for getting the plant straight or right of the line you're running towards. Coarser and probably easier to keep the leg muscles controlled way is to move the right leg back before planting. Like a mule kicking back but only a little. Both back and right can be used simultaneously.

I'm not experienced enough with this to comment with any authority on this. Intuitively it seems that consistency and accuracy of the step is the most important thing so that you don't tilt the disc the way you didn't intend to. It may be a good idea to keep the motions as simple as possible. Perhaps just using one axis of movement for the leg placement gives the best results overall. If not it still may be a good idea in the beginning.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
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