The rule as written is old and does not take tuning into account. The Rules Nazis read this old, unclear rule as black and white and accept it's inherent contradictory rulings as law. They contend that "players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics" is "crystal clear in its prohibition of 'tuning.'"justin wrote:I was following the thread on PDGA closely. I take from the comments that everyone agrees that detecting a tuned disc is unfeasible for tournaments right now. Also, some people think that if some players tune discs, while others don't because it is not explicitly specified as legal. Personally I don't tune my discs.
I can't think of how tuning a disc gives a player an automatic advantage. Knowing the discs in your bag helps immensely and I just can't think of a difference between throwing the same discs for 3 years or tuning them to the way you want. It's not like tuning unlocks a secret warp zone that other players don't know about. My personal belief is that skill will always trump equipment all else being equal. Especially when everyone's equipment varies slightly anyway. Disc golf is not Nascar; we don't all throw the same molds.
Also, I read that some people think that tuning a disc in the middle of a round can give an unfair advantage because you could throw all of your overstable drivers into water and then tune a disc you have left to be overstable. Well good luck with that, because as soon as you tune a disc, how the disc performs becomes an unknown.
I think that a small clause should be allowed for tuning a disc, while maintaining the 21 cm diameter rule.
If Innova wants to make a special disc that only sponsored players can use (being unable to spread the cost of developing said disc across runs of thousands of discs to the consumer) thereby passing up the possibility of selling thousands and thousands of these discs to the general disc golfing public...more power to them. Companies that make stupid business decisions just go out of business, so soon the point would be moot.Chuck Kennedy wrote:If the rule were simplified so that players just couldn't add any material (except dye) or shave plastic from the disc such that tuning was allowed, then we should also remove the requirement that 500 discs be producted for retail sales for a new disc mold to be approved. In other words, manufacturers could produce discs that only their sponsored players could have. The rationale being discussed here is that nothing a player can do to tune a disc will make it any better than what is already available or can possibly be molded at this point under the current specs.
I don't know a lot about them, but what about the old DGA "Factor ___" discs? One old schooler around here had a "Factor 5 Stingray", as I understand it, they shave off the bottom part of the wing to make a disc less stable. Are these discs actually legal? They're not modified by the player, but they ARE modified.
Realistically, it makes no difference when Innova released the Destroyer. Nate Doss can't throw it no matter when it comes out. Cale can't throw it. Randolph can't throw it. Really, other than Steve Rico there is no one with a legitimate chance to win Worlds that this would effect.Chuck Kennedy wrote:No manufacturer would likely just produce a disc for their sponsored players for the long run but they might keep it for them for the championship season from July thru October for example. I'm thinking like when the Destroyer first came out. Nothing else was widely available with that wing at the time.
So what do you do with the 8X Roc? The Rancho Roc is still in production, so I'm assuming the 8X would still be OK? What about the San Marino? It was OOP for a dozen years. Would they all suddenly have become legal again this spring? What date do you use? The Pegasus has not been run in years, but you can still buy them. So I'm guessing it would be up to Innova to supply the date the last run was made. Could they do a short run of CFR discs and keep it legal for 10 more years? That would be cool...LE Marauders! CFR Morays! Lets do it!Chuck Kennedy wrote:The problem of disc availability already exists at the other end of the time line when discs not in production out perform any current discs and aren't widely available. Perhaps we should ban discs once they haven't been in production for maybe 10 years? Case in point might be (I believe) the FB6 mold which is the hot one for MTA and long out of production. The remaining models are gold for those players who still have one.
jsun3thousand wrote:Disc golfers are holding the sport back.
Chuck Kennedy wrote:Just pointing out that the fundamental issue for this topic is making sure that some players don't have a technological edge not available to other players either due to tuning capability, disc production being withheld or no production any more. Seems like whatever rules revisions are needed should address all three areas in a consistent manner.
Working Stiff wrote:players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics
802.01 Discs Used in Play
802.01 A. Discs used in play must meet all of the conditions set forth in the Official PDGA Technical Standards Document. See section 805 B for disc technical standards.
802.01 B. A disc which is cracked or perforated is illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F. A disc which is cracked during a round may be carried by the player, but not used, for the balance of the tournament. The player must immediately declare his intention to carry the newly cracked or broken disc to the group or be subject to penalty under 802.01 E.
802.01 C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F.
802.01 D. Discs must be specifically approved by the director if questioned by another player or an official, but in no case shall the disc be approved if it violates any of the above specifications. Any specifically non-approved disc (per the director) shall be considered illegal, and the player shall be penalized in accordance with 802.01 E.
802.01 E. A player who carries an illegal disc during play shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc during the round may be subject to disqualification in accordance with 804.05 A (3).
802.01F. All discs used in play, except mini marker discs, must be uniquely marked in ink or pigment-based marking which has no detectable thickness. A player shall receive a warning for the first instance of throwing an unmarked disc if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. After the warning has been given, each subsequent throw by the player with an unmarked disc shall incur one penalty throw if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.
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