Tuned disc legality for tournament use

Rules Discussion and General PDGA discussion.

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

Should tuned discs be legal for tournament use?

Yes - they are legal
40
91%
No - they are illegal
4
9%
 
Total votes : 44

Postby justin » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:19 am

I was following the thread on PDGA closely. I take from the comments that everyone agrees that detecting a tuned disc is unfeasible for tournaments right now. Also, some people think that if some players tune discs, while others don't because it is not explicitly specified as legal. Personally I don't tune my discs.

I can't think of how tuning a disc gives a player an automatic advantage. Knowing the discs in your bag helps immensely and I just can't think of a difference between throwing the same discs for 3 years or tuning them to the way you want. It's not like tuning unlocks a secret warp zone that other players don't know about. My personal belief is that skill will always trump equipment all else being equal. Especially when everyone's equipment varies slightly anyway. Disc golf is not Nascar; we don't all throw the same molds.

Also, I read that some people think that tuning a disc in the middle of a round can give an unfair advantage because you could throw all of your overstable drivers into water and then tune a disc you have left to be overstable. Well good luck with that, because as soon as you tune a disc, how the disc performs becomes an unknown.

I think that a small clause should be allowed for tuning a disc, while maintaining the 21 cm diameter rule.
justin
justin
Noob
User avatar
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:50 am

Postby Working Stiff » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:48 am

justin wrote:I was following the thread on PDGA closely. I take from the comments that everyone agrees that detecting a tuned disc is unfeasible for tournaments right now. Also, some people think that if some players tune discs, while others don't because it is not explicitly specified as legal. Personally I don't tune my discs.

I can't think of how tuning a disc gives a player an automatic advantage. Knowing the discs in your bag helps immensely and I just can't think of a difference between throwing the same discs for 3 years or tuning them to the way you want. It's not like tuning unlocks a secret warp zone that other players don't know about. My personal belief is that skill will always trump equipment all else being equal. Especially when everyone's equipment varies slightly anyway. Disc golf is not Nascar; we don't all throw the same molds.

Also, I read that some people think that tuning a disc in the middle of a round can give an unfair advantage because you could throw all of your overstable drivers into water and then tune a disc you have left to be overstable. Well good luck with that, because as soon as you tune a disc, how the disc performs becomes an unknown.

I think that a small clause should be allowed for tuning a disc, while maintaining the 21 cm diameter rule.
The rule as written is old and does not take tuning into account. The Rules Nazis read this old, unclear rule as black and white and accept it's inherent contradictory rulings as law. They contend that "players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics" is "crystal clear in its prohibition of 'tuning.'"

The rest of us see the gray in this poorly written rule and decide that there is nothing "crystal clear" about it. If tuning was illegal, the PDGA could clearly write "Tuning a disc by bending the rim of a disc to change its flight characteristics is prohibited. Any tuned disc will be declared illegal for PDGA sanctioned play" in the rulebook. BUT...it does not say that. By not addressing the issue, the PDGA has shown the TD's how they would like the matter addressed...look the other way and hope no one notices.

So, really the rule is open to interpretation. My interpretation is that I don't throw Firebirds and really don't know what the rim looks like out of the box, so if you hand me two and ask me to rule on which is tuned I'd just be guessing. I have thrown Illusions and I've seen the rim angle vary wildly from the manufacturer, so how the Hell would I know if you tuned it unless you told me? Does it become legal to tune a Gateway disc because of the many molding variations they have from run to run (allowing you to argue you were trying to restore the "original" flight characteristics of the mold) but not legal to tune Discraft? Who knows?

The Rules Nazis can say this rule is "crystal clear," but it's a bad rule that (as always is the case with TDing a PDGA event) ends up putting the TD on the spot to make a ruling that is clear as mud and guaranteed to piss somebody off.

Which kind-of explains why it has been so long since I TD'ed a PDGA event.
Last edited by Working Stiff on Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
Working Stiff
Super Moderator of DGCR
User avatar
 
Posts: 2539
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:41 am
Favorite Disc: Ontario Roc

Postby geoloseth » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:18 am

Working stiff is on to it again. The rule book was written years ago when plastics like star ESP and even pro weren't even ideas yet. Back then tuning a disc would only mean trying to fix a bend from hitting a tree. You would likely have ruined the disc if you really tried to change the flight of it. The PGA has had their rules with the advent of new technology and so should the Pdga.
geoloseth
Fairway Surgeon
 
Posts: 505
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:27 am
Location: Texas

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:38 am

If the rule were simplified so that players just couldn't add any material (except dye) or shave plastic from the disc such that tuning was allowed, then we should also remove the requirement that 500 discs be producted for retail sales for a new disc mold to be approved. In other words, manufacturers could produce discs that only their sponsored players could have. The rationale being discussed here is that nothing a player can do to tune a disc will make it any better than what is already available or can possibly be molded at this point under the current specs.
Chuck Kennedy
1000 Rated Poster
 
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Twin Cities

Postby Working Stiff » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:12 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:If the rule were simplified so that players just couldn't add any material (except dye) or shave plastic from the disc such that tuning was allowed, then we should also remove the requirement that 500 discs be producted for retail sales for a new disc mold to be approved. In other words, manufacturers could produce discs that only their sponsored players could have. The rationale being discussed here is that nothing a player can do to tune a disc will make it any better than what is already available or can possibly be molded at this point under the current specs.
If Innova wants to make a special disc that only sponsored players can use (being unable to spread the cost of developing said disc across runs of thousands of discs to the consumer) thereby passing up the possibility of selling thousands and thousands of these discs to the general disc golfing public...more power to them. Companies that make stupid business decisions just go out of business, so soon the point would be moot.

The only reason I could see for a manufacturer to do this is to try to make it easier for their sponsored players to win money in events. I don't think a company would go to the expense of developing the next great disc and then NOT sell it just so that their sponsored players would have a competitive advantage.

If the disc in question is NOT the next great disc, then their really is no competitive advantage. If the Moray had been a "sponsored player only" release, I really don't think that would have changed many tournament results.

Anyway, the connection is a stretch. The reality is even if you do not tune your discs, anyone could. If there was a disc that Davey Mac made especially for Kid and Nikko that I can't have, then the option of throwing that disc is not there for me. I think your example is apples/oranges.
Working Stiff
Super Moderator of DGCR
User avatar
 
Posts: 2539
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:41 am
Favorite Disc: Ontario Roc

Postby some call me...tim? » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:24 pm

I don't know a lot about them, but what about the old DGA "Factor ___" discs? One old schooler around here had a "Factor 5 Stingray", as I understand it, they shave off the bottom part of the wing to make a disc less stable. Are these discs actually legal? They're not modified by the player, but they ARE modified.
some call me...tim?
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1946
Joined: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:01 pm
Location: Seattle, WA

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:26 pm

The problem of disc availability already exists at the other end of the time line when discs not in production out perform any current discs and aren't widely available. Perhaps we should ban discs once they haven't been in production for maybe 10 years? Case in point might be (I believe) the FB6 mold which is the hot one for MTA and long out of production. The remaining models are gold for those players who still have one.

No manufacturer would likely just produce a disc for their sponsored players for the long run but they might keep it for them for the championship season from July thru October for example. I'm thinking like when the Destroyer first came out. Nothing else was widely available with that wing at the time.
Chuck Kennedy
1000 Rated Poster
 
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Twin Cities

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:36 pm

I don't know a lot about them, but what about the old DGA "Factor ___" discs? One old schooler around here had a "Factor 5 Stingray", as I understand it, they shave off the bottom part of the wing to make a disc less stable. Are these discs actually legal? They're not modified by the player, but they ARE modified.

They're still shown in the PDGA Approved disc table for DGA. I find it interesting that if you compare the overall height of the factored disc to the baseline disc or compare rim heights, they are the same. That would mean that whatever shaving / factoring was done was less than half a millimeter to fall in those measuring tolerances, which isn't much.
Chuck Kennedy
1000 Rated Poster
 
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Twin Cities

Postby Working Stiff » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:15 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:No manufacturer would likely just produce a disc for their sponsored players for the long run but they might keep it for them for the championship season from July thru October for example. I'm thinking like when the Destroyer first came out. Nothing else was widely available with that wing at the time.
Realistically, it makes no difference when Innova released the Destroyer. Nate Doss can't throw it no matter when it comes out. Cale can't throw it. Randolph can't throw it. Really, other than Steve Rico there is no one with a legitimate chance to win Worlds that this would effect.

This would have a bigger effect for Am Worlds, where Innova could give an advantage to a kid like Dave Wiggins, Jr. But really, who can name the last five Am Worlds champions? How many of the known Pros won Am worlds? Trying to market your product by dominating an event that people really don't follow would be an odd decision.
Working Stiff
Super Moderator of DGCR
User avatar
 
Posts: 2539
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:41 am
Favorite Disc: Ontario Roc

Postby Working Stiff » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:26 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:The problem of disc availability already exists at the other end of the time line when discs not in production out perform any current discs and aren't widely available. Perhaps we should ban discs once they haven't been in production for maybe 10 years? Case in point might be (I believe) the FB6 mold which is the hot one for MTA and long out of production. The remaining models are gold for those players who still have one.
So what do you do with the 8X Roc? The Rancho Roc is still in production, so I'm assuming the 8X would still be OK? What about the San Marino? It was OOP for a dozen years. Would they all suddenly have become legal again this spring? What date do you use? The Pegasus has not been run in years, but you can still buy them. So I'm guessing it would be up to Innova to supply the date the last run was made. Could they do a short run of CFR discs and keep it legal for 10 more years? That would be cool...LE Marauders! CFR Morays! Lets do it!
Working Stiff
Super Moderator of DGCR
User avatar
 
Posts: 2539
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:41 am
Favorite Disc: Ontario Roc

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:33 pm

Just pointing out that the fundamental issue for this topic is making sure that some players don't have a technological edge not available to other players either due to tuning capability, disc production being withheld or no production any more. Seems like whatever rules revisions are needed should address all three areas in a consistent manner.
Chuck Kennedy
1000 Rated Poster
 
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Twin Cities

Postby Timko » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:42 pm

The difference is that the last 2 are controlled by the manufacturer, and the first is controlled by the player. So any player can tune a disc. Only a subset of the discing population can get their hands on a disc that had a run of 500 or so. I think the language "original flight characteristics" should be changed to "original mold design" or something to the like, since discs produced from the same mold can look and fly differently (flat top Spirits anyone?). The only constant is the mold.
jsun3thousand wrote:Disc golfers are holding the sport back.
Timko
Like Angels Kicking Ass in your Mouth
User avatar
 
Posts: 7708
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:21 pm
Location: KCMO

Postby geoloseth » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:48 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Just pointing out that the fundamental issue for this topic is making sure that some players don't have a technological edge not available to other players either due to tuning capability, disc production being withheld or no production any more. Seems like whatever rules revisions are needed should address all three areas in a consistent manner.


I don't think that the technology in discs has increased in such a way that if a major company came out with the next best thing that their player would have a distinct advantage over guys throwind discs that are widely available today. The most popular discs are ones that have been around for years. Nothing out there now is more stable than a ram or whippet-x, the distance record last time I checked was still with an older model disc, and the least stable disc is probably still the archangel and the most durable plastic isn't even run anymore (CE). All of the top pros are all sponsored by the major companies so they would end up using the same limited special run disc as each other.

I think the rule on modifications was written and intended to keep people from making changes to disc dimentions such as profile and weight. Those would be the real advantages that not everyone would be able to make to their discs. Anyone can bend the rim on their disc at any time.
geoloseth
Fairway Surgeon
 
Posts: 505
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:27 am
Location: Texas

Postby SkaBob » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:04 pm

Working Stiff wrote:players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics


The really great thing about rules nazis making a fuss about this is just how easily you can take it and show them how often they've broken the rule themselves.

You hit a tree? Did the disc bend? Was a dent put in the rim? You just broke the rule. Even if you didn't un-bend the disc.

Intentional or not, they've just violated the rule if it's so black and white. heh...

Your seasoned DX Roc that's your money disc? aww.... Your perfectly worn putter? man... Sorry to hear about your luck! :lol:
SkaBob
Disc Whore
 
Posts: 3493
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:51 am
Location: Detroit
Favorite Disc: Comet

Postby Working Stiff » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:24 pm

Actually, normal wear and tear is covered by the rule:

802.01 Discs Used in Play

802.01 A. Discs used in play must meet all of the conditions set forth in the Official PDGA Technical Standards Document. See section 805 B for disc technical standards.

802.01 B. A disc which is cracked or perforated is illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F. A disc which is cracked during a round may be carried by the player, but not used, for the balance of the tournament. The player must immediately declare his intention to carry the newly cracked or broken disc to the group or be subject to penalty under 802.01 E.

802.01 C. Players may not make post-production modification of discs which alter their original flight characteristics. This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play or the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrape marks. Discs excessively sanded or painted with a material of detectable thickness are illegal. See sections 802.01 D, E and F.

802.01 D. Discs must be specifically approved by the director if questioned by another player or an official, but in no case shall the disc be approved if it violates any of the above specifications. Any specifically non-approved disc (per the director) shall be considered illegal, and the player shall be penalized in accordance with 802.01 E.

802.01 E. A player who carries an illegal disc during play shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. A player who repeatedly throws an illegal disc during the round may be subject to disqualification in accordance with 804.05 A (3).

802.01F. All discs used in play, except mini marker discs, must be uniquely marked in ink or pigment-based marking which has no detectable thickness. A player shall receive a warning for the first instance of throwing an unmarked disc if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. After the warning has been given, each subsequent throw by the player with an unmarked disc shall incur one penalty throw if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.


So, all this really comes down to whether you think tuning violates 802.01 C, because the PDGA has declined to say one way or the other. Of course even if they did come out and say it is illegal, I'm not sure how you would prove it unless someone admitted that they did it or decided to tune a disc in the middle of a round in front of everyone. At that point it would become like pot..."Hey man, do you mind if I tune?" :P
Working Stiff
Super Moderator of DGCR
User avatar
 
Posts: 2539
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:41 am
Favorite Disc: Ontario Roc

PreviousNext

Return to Rules Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests