2m Rule? Yeah or Nay?

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2m Rule Good? Bad?

Yes, 2m rule should always be in effect.
28
36%
No, 2m rule is unnecessary punishment.
50
64%
 
Total votes : 78

Postby Timko » Fri May 09, 2008 10:42 am

Fritz wrote:Easy, QMS up the gut parked.
:)
That looks like a fun course. Hope I can come down to Texas and play some day.

Remember, you don't have to do a straight run up, you can approach that tee pad from the side :)

I'd do my run up from the left side of that pad, and have a nice straight shot.


+1 with a flippy roc hyzer-flipped.

If I was staying on the pad, I'd throw a roc 70% power on a very slight anhyzer with a bit of nose up. Should do a slight turn, with some stall back to the left at the end.
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Postby Solbo » Fri May 09, 2008 11:00 am

Fritz wrote:Wow, have to say I'm stunned at the results of this poll.

Buncha sissies...
;)


I agree, but without the winking.

2m rule is just something else to think about, which makes this game great.

Be a hero and chance that you get caught up in the tree tops, or play the technical route, thus eliminating that chance.
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Postby MDR_3000 » Fri May 09, 2008 11:05 am

Solbo wrote:
Fritz wrote:Wow, have to say I'm stunned at the results of this poll.

Buncha sissies...
;)


I agree, but without the winking.

2m rule is just something else to think about, which makes this game great.

Be a hero and chance that you get caught up in the tree tops, or play the technical route, thus eliminating that chance.


You can still get caught in a tree 2m high, going the technical route...I have done it on a few occasions..
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Postby some call me...tim? » Fri May 09, 2008 11:22 am

Yeah, I still stand by not rewarding or punishing luck. 2m is NOT that high, even when keeping a disc low and technical, there's a good chance it's above 2m at some point in its flight. You don't need to go for the crazy over the top route to get screwed by the 2m rule.
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Postby Solbo » Fri May 09, 2008 11:39 am

pansies.
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Postby Midnightbiker » Fri May 09, 2008 12:26 pm

Furthur wrote:
Fritz wrote:Easy, QMS up the gut parked.
:)
That looks like a fun course. Hope I can come down to Texas and play some day.

Remember, you don't have to do a straight run up, you can approach that tee pad from the side :)

I'd do my run up from the left side of that pad, and have a nice straight shot.


+1 with a flippy roc hyzer-flipped.

If I was staying on the pad, I'd throw a roc 70% power on a very slight anhyzer with a bit of nose up. Should do a slight turn, with some stall back to the left at the end.


I have a friend who throws a beat DX Stingray to the left on that hole and it comes back right and works. You really can't tell from the picture, but there is a path all the way to the basket if you follow that line. There is also a straight line to the basket, but you really have to thread the needle.

This course is considered one of the "Black Sheep" courses in the Houston area. You either like it , or you hate it. Most people who have only played it once hate it, because it is a very challenging course. Most of the locals, (like myself) who live in the area and play this course all the time, like it. Each hole has a line or two to follow, and once you find that line, its not that hard. Here are a few more pics of the course. Anyone going to be in the Houston area anytime , pm me and I will be happy to show you the course.

Image

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Postby Timko » Fri May 09, 2008 3:06 pm

I'd throw a Roc or Wizard at that hole too, depending on the length.
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Postby niblick83 » Mon May 12, 2008 5:09 pm

I chose no mostly because it is often a random, unnecessary punishment for a potentially small mistake. I would be in favor of the 2m rule in certain circumstances but not as a blanket rule for everything. Certain trees (large coniferous trees with low branches) already extract what is essentially a penalty throw by forcing a simple toss out that only gets the player out of the tree and doesn't get them significantly closer to the basket. If the two meter rule is in effect when you get stuck 2m up in one of those trees (which are generally the best trees at catching discs) you would get the penalty stroke and your lie is still marked within the tree and you have to use up another shot just getting out of the tree. Seems to me that this is just adding insult to injury. Perhaps the height needs to be adjusted to 3m or more or the td can designate this rule in effect for certain holes or trees. I don't mind hard courses but I think that the 2m rule can lead to excessive penalty for a mistake.
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Postby trogdor » Thu May 15, 2008 5:54 pm

Disc golf is all about luck. That 150' approach that happens to go in is luck. Skipping 30 past the basket into a pond is luck. Hanging 2.1 meters from a tree limb is luck.

The game is all about managing the luck. If I throw high in a heavily wooded area, I'm more likely to end up stuck in a tree branch than if I throw low or a skip or a roller. Of course if I throw a roller, I'm likely to hit a trunk and go rolling off into a more heavily wooded area. Luck, yes. Every throw you make has an element of luck to it which is why we keep playing the game.

Yeah luck...yeah 2 meter...yeah OB ... yeah mandos... yeah disc golf!
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Postby pg043 » Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:32 am

It's a funny thing...the more I practice, the luckier I get. 2M rule is good. Only time I have a problem with it is on ridiculously tree-covered holes with no fairway. But that's more of a course design problem than a problem with the 2M rule.
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Postby tim » Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:38 am

I voted "yes" on the two meter rule because in most cases I've seen people get stuck in trees, it is because they took a riskier route where the "luck" became a greater factor. If there is a hole with a defined -- but narrow -- fairway vs. a huge spike hyzer over the trees and in towards the basket, I think that the person taking the spike-hyzer higher-risk route deserves to have a penalty sometimes in the form of two two-meter rule.

There are rare cases where bad luck just happens -- I remember a shot I put 3' high down the fairway at Cameron East on one of the back holes. It clipped a low branch, kicked up at a 45-degree angle and got stuck 7' up, wedged in a V of two-limbs on the skinniest tree you ever saw. Bad luck on that shot, and the two-meter penalty was a double-whammy (playing before they took it out of effect).

However, I think bad and good luck happens to everyone on every course. I agree that part of getting better and learning the mental game is to learn how to increase your odds on each hole to minimize the chances of bad luck happening. The two-meter rule is just one more thing to factor into your shot decisions.

One of my top 10 courses is Seneca Creek State Park in Gaithersburg, MD. At that course, the two meter rule is ALWAYS in effect. More than any other course I've ever seen, the course was designed with the two meter rule as an integral part of the hole designs. There are hundreds of cedar trees around the course that eat discs for breakfast. Probably 40-50% of the time a disc hits a cedar it stays where it hits. There are 10-15' PVC poles leaning up against trees all around the course to help people retrieve their discs. Yet the course is very fair -- every hole has one or more clear fairways, and on the holes with cedars, there are clear ways to throw to avoid the cedars. However, if you mess up your shot, you are going to take a penalty. Another plus of the course is that it is beautifully manicured and the grass is open and smooth on most holes, so rollers are a valid option on a lot of the cedar holes -- if you don't have a roller, it will force you to learn to throw one. You don't have to have a roller, but rollers increase your luck on a lot of holes. It's 27 of the most beautiful holes anywhere in the country, so play it if you get a chance and see the best place I know of where the two meter rule deserves to always be in effect.
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Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:09 am

One job of a course designer to make choices that reward skill and reduce luck. Now that the 2-meter rule is optional in the same way water being OB is optional, it puts the responsibility on the designer to make wise choices to use the 2-meter rule where warranted.

Anyone who states absolutes that the 2-meter should always be in effect or never should be in effect is copping out on really thinking about how the 2-meter rule can play an effective part in reducing luck and increasing skill where warranted, not just blindly following a blanket policy.

In general, getting stuck above 2m is more luck than skill. Cedar trees such as Seneca has will stop most shots from progressing whether it sticks in the tree or not. The loss of distance for hitting/sticking in one and usually a crappy lie under the cedar is more than enough penalty without adding another one. IMO, cedar trees in or shaping the fairway routes should NEVER have the 2m penalty. It's unnecessary. Now if the cedars are on the boundaries of the fairways, then a shot there has already been shanked and the 2m penalty is more reasonable although still more punitive than really needed.

Using the 2m for trees around baskets probably makes the most sense since many times those holes were designed with the risk of the 2m penalty as part of increasing the risk for simply bombing over the top to the pin rather than following the routes thru the woods.

However, even then, there's perhaps a better way to handle situations where there are maybe just a handful of fir trees protecting a basket. You are allowed to have a rule where any disc suspended in those trees is not penalized, but the player has to play from a drop zone set maybe 10m from the pin. This way a player landing in the tree doesn't get a free drop next to the basket but has to make a 10m putt instead. This is a way to improve the skill factor and reduce the luck.
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Postby geoloseth » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:41 am

Good point Chuck. Cedar Hill DG Park in north texas is a prime example. The course has defined fairways that have been well cleared but if you stray too far to the sides you get into cedar trees and shule. Having the 2m rule here would just be another stroke added to the one that it would likely take just to get out of the crap. Instead it would be beneficial to have a defined 10m circle around the baskets where any disc stuck above 2m would result in a relocation to a defined drop zone with no penalty stroke invoked. This would keep players from just running at the basket in hopes of hitting chains or being stopped for an easy drop putt.

Other courses in the area have only large shade trees that are used to provide obstacles for the big arms that can throw above everything. Certain courses like the Lake Park have multiple routes to the pin where throwing high might result in being stopped 30' or more in a tree. The risk/reward factor is there and so should the 2m rule.
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Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:15 pm

One idea that was suggested to make the 2m rule a little less punitive is to use the options for the "unplayable lie" rule if a throw is above 2m. If the rule is in effect and a player lands above 2m, they would be allowed to drop the disc straight to the ground like the current rule. However, if that was still inside something like a fir tree, they could get up to 5m back on the line of play to mark their lie. They would get the 1-throw penalty no matter what. But they would get a decent lie and not suffer the added penalty of being under a tree also.

If going back up to 5m still didn't get them a decent lie out of the tree(s), they could also return to their original lie in the same way that is allowed for unplayables as an option. What we would try to do is get the rule changed in the next update so that landing above 2m (if that is in effect) would mean it's handled as an unplayable lie and just follow those rules from there.
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