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Postby noah » Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:16 pm

Here is a few minutes of putting and then at the end is some approach shots. What can I work on to make me better? Thanks!

http://www.mediafire.com/?ilxjzy0sjx4
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Postby JR » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:26 am

Putting: Reading the twelve putting tips article and comparing it to your video might be a revelation. It's on the man page in the articles section. Also it's useful to read how Blake short arm putts.

Your left shoulder is high and right droops down and you lunge forward with your right shoulder. I'm not saying that hyzer putting is inherently bad because like anything with practice it can be fine as long as you don't get killer roll aways. If I see correctly your torso and shoulders are not square to the target but facing somewhat left of the basket. You're throwing the disc to the right of that line. It introduces error chances that realized in a couple of your putts. Your stance and the weight forward shift aren't fully balanced and stable leading to variations and misses. You were falling to the right a couple of times. Blake's articles contain the advice for correction.

Your approach throws look like you're trying to strong arm a drive. Using the search function to gather a lot of info about "plyometric loading", "late acceleration" and "late power focus" give a lot to read but also answers to more questions than you asked. The benefits are double digit amount of per cents in increased drive distance and more accuracy. Hopefully repeatability later on too.

For starters without the long searches and mountains of info don't pull hard with the arm and don't tense your upper arm muscles at all until the disc is 10-12" from being released with arm straight at the target and body facing the target square. Even then the point is not to tense up the upper arm muscles(it'll slow down the arm) but to accelerate the arm from the shoulder socket to the right. For good wrist part of snap.

Not easy to accomplish. Videoing those attempts should prove why timing and mechanics of achieving those goals are difficult. And what you need to correct to achieve improvements. It's great if you manage to get those right within the first three months of practice. It's really that hard.

Holding on to the disc until the arm is straight pointing to the target and proper "wrist extension" is a great following step for practice.
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Postby noah » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:58 am

JR,

Some may accuse you being long-winded, but I really appreciate how you put everything in a checklist style so I can say...check, next thing to focus on, check, okay moving on. Even if this takes 3 months, it's well worth it. Even if it takes 6 months its well worth it! I want to be the best player at our local course, which as far as I can tell...I'm already in the top 90%. Might change once the college kids come back.

One quick question for you is the late power focus basically a way of saying, "feel the hit" and I really need to go back to that and focus on that for a few weeks and not try to integrate it into my throws right away? Either way, I now have plenty of reading to do. Thanks again!

Also, I just tried putting here in the apartment with paper plates and by squaring up you get much better weight transfer!
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Postby SkaBob » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:27 am

On a number of your approach shots I noticed you're starting your pull with the disc flat, but finishing with it nose up. If you can get the disc to maintain the same flatness you have at the beginning of your throw, you'll get more distance, accuracy and a much straighter flight path out of your approach shots.

Most likely (can't say for sure because I couldn't frame by frame the video) this is happening because you're rolling your wrist as it comes across your body. This is what your body will naturally want to do, and learning not to do it is one of the must un-natural feeling things about getting better at disc golf - thankfully it's pretty simple to learn, though I'm at a loss right now (hey I'm tired heh) as to how to describe how not to do it...
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Postby noah » Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:32 am

I do a frame by frame in windows movie maker. It works pretty slick, although, I don't know what i'm looking for for wrist roll.

Thanks for the input!
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Postby SkaBob » Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:46 am

Just look for when the disc stops being flat. Chances are your wrist is turning so your hand is essentially twisting to the left (counter clockwise). It's that motion that needs to be eliminated. It ends up feeling like you're doing this un-natural forward twist as you throw at first, but eventually becomes second nature.
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Postby JR » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:35 am

SkaBob wrote:On a number of your approach shots I noticed you're starting your pull with the disc flat, but finishing with it nose up. If you can get the disc to maintain the same flatness you have at the beginning of your throw, you'll get more distance, accuracy and a much straighter flight path out of your approach shots.

Most likely (can't say for sure because I couldn't frame by frame the video) this is happening because you're rolling your wrist as it comes across your body. This is what your body will naturally want to do, and learning not to do it is one of the must un-natural feeling things about getting better at disc golf - thankfully it's pretty simple to learn, though I'm at a loss right now (hey I'm tired heh) as to how to describe how not to do it...


Wrist roll is often talked about but elbow and upper arm/shoulder joint can also roll. I meant to write that when you punch your arm back like you do in the video you're plyometrically loading your side muscles but it's almost guaranteed that something in the arm twists to a place it's not supposed to be. That can be corrected because what really counts is the disc attitude at the release.

Unfortunately there's one trouble area that you really can't correct mid throw. It's too easy to loose good grip and proper position of the disc in the hand when you punch back. Because you're supposed to keep the muscles in the lower arm fairly loose to allow for plyometric loading of the muscles and tendons between the elbow and wrist.

Another thing to look for in that kind of quick hip twist back is that once you begin to twist your hips back towards the target it's difficult to separate hip power and beginning of the arm pull. Especially in power generation. Your hips are along for a free ride in the beginning of rotation towards the target because of the plyometric unloading pushes you towards the target. And it feels like being on top of the world moving like a greased lightning.

It's something very primordial in the mind to get exhilarated by the feeling of a quick hip motion. Like now I'm gonna really crush. That euphoria often leads(the natural reaction) to rushing and trying to match the quickness of motion with arm pull with full power early on. Leading to not plyometrically loading the arm muscles. Robbing essential spin from the disc resulting in the disc fading at x % of pro distance and crashing way short compared to top players. It's not only the power difference but the lack of disc speed and, probably more important, spin.

I forgot to mention that when the disc released on the approaches your heart wasn't vertically over your right knee. That really does help with getting the nose of the disc down.

It's hard to try to feel the hit unless you already know what it feels like. Climo showed in FCGU clinic on youtube that the hard acceleration of the arm happens about 10-12" back from the release. When you get to about 12" short of disc release that is the first time to really start to accelerate the arm. Quickly!!!
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Postby black udder » Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:24 am

I have to smile - it wasn't so long ago that I was where you are.

With the putting, too much wrist action for me and not enough weight transfer. You get real close with a few though. Keep working at it.

With the midrange shots, you're expending way too much energy for the distance I believe you're probably getting. Just stand still, reach the disc to your left and then bring it slowly across your chest. As you pull it across, bend your wrist towards your chest. When you get all the way to the right side, the disc will now be nestled between your forearm and bicep. Extend your arm, keeping your wrist bent and the disc as close to your arm as long as you can. When your arm is extended, your wrist will point to the left an the disc will almost touch the base of your wrist. At this point, you will let the momentum of your arm motion allow your wrist to flick open. If you can time it so that you give a little extra effort, so much the better, but to start with, let the momentum do it. If you have a good grip on the disc, it will come out with some snap and lots of rotation.

Practice that at a slow to medium tempo until you understand what you're doing and can execute it, then can execute it faster. You will have to adjust your grip (stronger or weaker) to allow the disc to come out on slower pulls.

Once you can do that, you can add some hip power and more torso/shoulder power and arm speed to increase distance. Give yourself a couple months of practice (a few times a week) to let this settle and allow you to get the feel of it.

This is the secret to disc golf distance - snap. If you can learn it, everything becomes easier. With snap, it's hard *not* to throw 150' with anything. Getting to 300' isn't hard at all. Then, to get more distance, you just need to work on timing and making an x-step work for you (and keeping the nose down).

Hopefully, by practicing standing still, you will be able to keep the nose of the disc down. Throwing like this does not require as much power as you imagine. It is all form. Remember that.
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Postby noah » Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:51 pm

BU,

You are absolutely right. I can throw further from a slowed down stand still than muscling the disc out there.

I can't wait to get started on your and JR's stuff. I'm really excited about the putting, because my approach is the best part of my game and if I can get my approach and putting down I'll be a way better player even if my drives are so-so.

All my disc go out about 180-210' and then die. Could it be that I'm not starting with my arm up high enough? It looks like I'm starting below the pec and finishing slightly above the shoulder?

Also, would using my wizards from here on out be such a bad thing until I really get it down?

Man you guys rock. I'd say I love you...but...hell...I love you!
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Postby JR » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:42 am

You're absolutely correct about the rising arm pull.

To set the record straight we're just mostly parroting what we gained from Blake and at least some of his stuff isn't original but from Dave Dunipace et al. We're just paying forward what we got.

Many people get rid of wrist rolls and OAT easily with putters as drivers. They just don't teach throwing nose down as well as a driver but that can easily be delayed until later. Check out Bradley Walker's nose down practice thread. Don't remeber the correct name of the thread.

noah wrote:BU,

You are absolutely right. I can throw further from a slowed down stand still than muscling the disc out there.

I can't wait to get started on your and JR's stuff. I'm really excited about the putting, because my approach is the best part of my game and if I can get my approach and putting down I'll be a way better player even if my drives are so-so.

All my disc go out about 180-210' and then die. Could it be that I'm not starting with my arm up high enough? It looks like I'm starting below the pec and finishing slightly above the shoulder?

Also, would using my wizards from here on out be such a bad thing until I really get it down?

Man you guys rock. I'd say I love you...but...hell...I love you!
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Postby black udder » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:12 pm

I agree with some of JR's comments, but for me, I'm passing on info that was taught to me directly by Jack Cooksey. I can't say enough about hands on lessons if you can ever get them.

Once you get the hang of snap, you'll find yourself hard pressed to throw under 200', it's just SO easy. What you're doing now is throwing nose up. Jack had me throwing shoulder height, right under my chin. If you start there, it makes it really tough to change position (up or down). Try a couple practice sessions pulling through high and see if you feel any difference. Remember when you hold your disc, to tilt your wrist so the nose of the disc is down. Let that and a flexible wrist be your focus as you pull through.

You need to feel the snap first, then focus on the nose down.
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Postby noah » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:26 pm

Alright,

I'll work on snap first. Hopefully I'll be getting in a practice session tonight.

JR, I still appreciate you guys taking the time to pass it on even if it is 2nd or third hand. It still takes time and effort and I'm sure these threads don't just help me, but others will find them later and learn from them.

I'll continue to throw wizards, rocs, gazzelles. I guess no real reason not to throw 'em all with all the practicing I'll be getting in.
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Postby black udder » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:06 pm

i'd suggest stick with the wizards during practice for the time being... less to walk and you'll see where you are/are not consistent. If you throw different discs, they will react different and that may mislead you as to your improvement or things you are trying. It looks like you have a few, so no worries.

Once you start feeling the snap and are getting 200'+ with the wizards, then the roc and gazelle will fly much better. In the meantime, I don't see any other disc going that much further than your wizards and if you don't hit the line, they will be much more apt to go waay off line and leave you in a worse position.

Many folks have played putter only rounds and discovered they are only a few shots off their normal scores. If you can throw 200' with the wizard, most holes should be a drive, upshot and putt away from par.
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