I know Champion plastics aren't the best for beginners, but

[Hadoken]

But my DX Leopard is turning from a fairway driver to a saw blade because of these trees, rocks, and roots!

I've only been playing for 2 months or so, but I'm learning how to drive well, I haven't measured but eye balling it based on known hole lengths, I think I can drive around 200-250 feet striaght and much much less curved, WHEN I STAY OUT OF THE TREES!

I love the way my 170 Leopard DX throws, I've finally straightened my throw out and and can now control my curves a little bit.
But I wouldn't even know how to being to throw a roller or a turnover shot.

So to keep my DX Leopard from getting WORSE I think I need a harder plastic driver.
Now the question is, since I don't know how to throw rollers and turnovers yet, is the Champion Sidewinder a good choice?
How about the Champion Roadrunner?
Any word on the new Star line, mainly the Star Sidewinder.
I need something for tight tree shots, but if I throw it straight, I need it to go fairly straight. I need it to be tree and rock resistant, and easy enough to throw for an amatuer.
I'm a left handed back hand thrower if that would change anything.
I'd like something that flies similar to the Leopard if thats possbile.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope I've included enough information!

BTW, if you guys have ever played at Glenn C Hilton Park in Hickory, NC you know the rocks I'm talking about!

[Blake_T]

well, first off, part of the reason why the leopard starts turning really early in its wear period is because it is understable when it is new. the ideal is to find discs that throw well when they are broken in.

i'm not a big fan of people learning with it as it doesn't really teach that discs should finish predictably. i'm not a fan of the roadrunner for a beginner either for this reason. the sidewinder is more representative but it is VERY flippy and it will fade a LOT if you don't get it turned over (read as: during your developmental stage you will likely build a throw that forces turnover).

as for dx plastic, i would recommend smoothing it off with some sandpaper. i do this a lot as 90% of the discs in my bag are dx/pro d/s plastic.

you are asking me the question many people have asked me:
Q: what is a great z/champ beginner driver?
A: none of them.

i would push elite X, pro, and millennium plastic ahead of ANY champ/z plastic. if your issue with dx plastic is more about scuffs than about warping, then those are "better" alternatives before champ/z.

a JLS is quite leopard-like but with a much more representative fade characteristic at the end. the x xl, and pro teebird-L are 1 step more stable.

the reason behind this is not the distance loss or the added overstability, but more that it makes it exponentially more difficult to learn shots that make the disc work when you are throwing low friction plastic.

with that all said and done i am guessing you are still likely to go buy champ/z plastic, so here is a list (in order) of the "best" beginner-friendly super-premium discs:
1) e sabre
2) z xpress
3) champ leopard
4) z xl
5) 2x champ beast (retooled version, if you don' t know anyone that can help you pick the right one, i would bypass this one altogether).

[Hadoken]

Sand paper will work for some of the things on my disc but I don't think I can improve my disc with sandpaper for a couple of the spots.
What grit sand paper do you use for your discs?

The worst one is a nearly 1/4th inch CHUNK missing out of the edge, and there are 2 others that are slightly smaller.

I haven't had any problem with warping that I can tell, and scuffs and scrapes don't bother me yet (I don't think my ability is high enough that a scuff on the disc is going to affect my throw...a quarter inch chunk may be different though!).

I've only been to the course probably about 10 times, 18 holes each time, so I'm not really sure what the life of a driver is. I know that once it's beat up it can still be good for other things though.
This course seems to be really tough on discs though, one hole in particular has a fairway made entirely of fist sized rocks. On one hole I've found 2 broken discs in the past 4 trips to the course!
I mean, no place to land BESIDES rocks.

How do the mid grade plastics stand up to trees and rocks as far as chunks coming out.

Recently while my friend and I were playing he found a Discraft Elite-Z Tracker (with a first run sticker on the bottom and just Discraft on the top), with no name or anything. We asked around and couldn't find anyone claiming to lost one so he kept it. After seeing how it is holding up after he's crashed it off trees and rocks it seems to be a good disc.

He doesn't drive as far as I do and he gets pretty good results with it and it didn't hurt my drive or line when I tried it out.

I respect what you are saying because you have a multitude more experience than I have, but with my current ability the Elite Z plastic doesn't hurt my ability, but what it does hurt is my ability to learn new techniques (my lack of rolling ability for one...) and learn how to properly form a good base of techniques.
But where I am now, I am happy with as my brother, cousin, uncle and I just play for fun once a week and I'm not looking to develop my abilities too far.
I know this sounds kind of foolish, but I'm happy where I am now and feel that I'm looking for more durability over more precise ability.

I like what I'm reading about the E Sabre, could you tell me where a good online store to buy Gateway Discs may be? The only place that sells discs here is a Dicks Sporting Goods and they have a poor selection and only Innova discs.

[Blake_T]

i actually use sanding sponges/blocks. i use the medium and fine grains (the sponges are 1 on each side): medium to round off big chunks and fine to smooth.

i've put huge gashes in discs (including champ/z plastic discs) and have used sanding to smooth them off.

the main draw of champ/z plastic is that it doesn't warp.

the lifespan of discs is dependent upon how much you throw them and how much you hit things. i rarely throw any one driver more than 3-4 teeshots per round of 18 holes and dx drivers end up lasting me like a year each before they become so understable that i only have use for them as turnover/roller discs. if i were to throw the same driver on all 18 holes a round, it would drastically shorten its lifespan.

when you look at basic durability there is:
1) how well the disc avoids dings/scuffs
2) how well the disc avoids structural compromises
3) how well the disc can be repaired from 1 and 2

with dx it is easy to smooth and easy to unbend any warping.
with mid grade plastics they are much more scuff resistant and they are slightly more durable when it comes to warping, but they cannot be unwarped once they are done.
with supre premium plastic they avoid 1 and 2 well, but they are the most difficult to repair if 1 and 2 occur.

with gateway you would likely have to buy online. they have very sporadic stock when it comes to their E line, so if you are looking for something easily replaceable i would probably recommend the z xpress and champ leopard ahead of it.

the shop i work at, www.gottagogottathrow.com has the majorty of the discs offered on the market.

[Hadoken]

Yeah, since I only had 2 discs (Aviar and Leopard) I was throwing the Leopard every tee shot, and then atleast 70% of shots thereafter, so it has seen quite a bit of use in a very short amount of time.

I found what I perceived to be a good deal on a Champion Sidewinder on Ebay, so I bidded on it, and won unexpectedly.
It was a brand new Champion Sidewinder (174g) AND a new Elite-Z Magnet, I didn't expect to win for my bid of $11.50, but I did.

So now for $11.50 plus shipping I have two new discs to try out.

I appreciate your input, and I probably wouldn't have gotten the Sidewinder if I didn't get it for a good price.
Now I hope they come in a reasonable amount of time so I can try them out.

[Blake_T]

sounds like you got a good deal.

btw, dx plastic is more about learning how to throw without torquing discs over and learning any shots that involve turning with the spin, namely hyzer flips/flattened hyzers.

[krusen]

A lighter is also a pretty decent tool to fix large "burrs" on a disc. Hold the flame far enough away just to get the plastic soft and form it back into the crevice with your fingers. Repeat this until you have the area pretty much leveled off, and go back over with some sandpaper to finish.

I will vouch for Discraft X plastic. It seems to be a little better than the Innova Pro plastic as far as warping, but is still fairly grippy and hold up to scuffs pretty well.

[TexasOutlaw]

A lighter is also a pretty decent tool to fix large "burrs" on a disc. Hold the flame far enough away just to get the plastic soft and form it back into the crevice with your fingers. Repeat this until you have the area pretty much leveled off, and go back over with some sandpaper to finish.

I will vouch for Discraft X plastic. It seems to be a little better than the Innova Pro plastic as far as warping, but is still fairly grippy and hold up to scuffs pretty well.

I'll second that. My x plastic has outlasted my champion plastic.

I bought an x avenger and pro starfire. Through them about the same frequency. The starfire started flipping much earlier. I still have the avenger which I use for hyzer flips.