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Postby dgdave » Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:53 am

Here is Aaron_D from the board. He's pretty good..... I guess :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vEet_UuMA4
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Postby black udder » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:45 am

Understand that Aaron has loony arm speed though. If you can do that, great, but it's not mandatory to throw well.
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Postby cmlasley » Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:24 am

This thread turned into a nice instructional article, with videos, even! Nice collective work, DGR machine.
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Postby felixtibs » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:39 pm

Wow, I am blown away by the responses by you guys. Never have I felt so welcome from a forum community in all my days of internetting!

What I have garnered from this information is that:
1) Stick with the low speed discs for a while
2)My form in my video posted is laughably poor and honestly quite hard on my shoulder and knee!
3)The concept of keeping the disc close to your chest allows for one to create the snap and stay true to the form WITHOUT massive exertion.

I am going to try what Black Udder recommended and do the snap drills, but I need some clarification. When you say stand disc length away from the wall plus an inch, you must be reffering to me having a fully extended arm as well, no?

I have been printing these articles out and reading them in my 9 HOURS OF CLASS A DAY I have :-)

Thanks again
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Postby cmlasley » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:45 pm

felixtibs wrote:I am going to try what Black Udder recommended and do the snap drills, but I need some clarification. When you say stand disc length away from the wall plus an inch, you must be reffering to me having a fully extended arm as well, no?


No. Stand facing the wall, 11 inches away. Learn how to pull the disc in between you and the wall, from just left of your left pec, to your right pec and on out to straight, with just your right shoulder moving minutely away from the wall. This is how you generate tremendous snap with little effort.
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Postby black udder » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:46 pm

hold a disc flat in front of you. Touch it to your chest. Touch the disc to the wall. Move back 1". That's how far I'm talking. About 9".

Your not trying to do anything major here - just super duper slowly, move the disc to your left shoulder, then pull it across your chest and extend your arm, keeping the disc about 1" away from the wall the whole time. What you'll see is the unwinding of the disc down your arm until your wrist opens.

You'll also see what people are talking about when they say "pull in a straight line". This is the line you're pulling on, so if you go outside that range, then you're losing snap.

Once you understand the line you're pulling on and how close you need to be to your chest to get the snap, then go outside and try doing that drill with no wall and see if the discs pop off your wrist with some zip.
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Postby cmlasley » Tue Sep 16, 2008 7:47 pm

black udder wrote: 9".


Geeze, at least give him a little finger room. :lol:
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Postby felixtibs » Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:02 pm

Epiphany!!!!

It took one minute to feel that snap in my fingers!!! I am so psyched to head out in the field and just take some slow, standing shots using this method. I pull in a striaght line from about 2" in front of my L shoulder straight across my right chest and right into that finger snap. The disc literally wanted to rip out of my fingers!!!!

Unfortunately my shoulder hurts from muscling out those drives you see in the video. I musta done that for a month!

If you guys are ever in NY or San Diego, Im buying you a beer and a slice of pizza/taco!
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Postby JR » Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:10 am

Welcome and enjoy the fun that is the loony lab at DGR:-)

You're seriously bleeding in power generation department by not chopping the elbow totally straight before the disc leaves. Check my comments in the technique section in the thread about beginner drives that is active at the moment. Paying close attention to late acceleration really creates a lot more distance. Coupling that with the close to the chest straight arm pull will in time increase your throwing distance dramatically provided you don't run into an inhibiting wall. The usual suspects are too loose muscles or lack of muscle power leading to the elbow, shoulder or most commonly the wrist rolling clockwise and less often counter. Or wrist raising from wrist down to wrist neutral or up position by the disc release.

It is very much true that for the hips to twist quicker and the arm to pull faster one has to remain loose and relaxed with the muscles. The apparent mixed advice between staying relaxed for speed of motions for the first 95 % of the throw for greater generated force and tensioning the muscles to keep the disc properly oriented throughout the throw (a dire necessity) are explained by the timing of when to be loose and which muscles we're meaning. In the standard advice.

Fingers and forearm muscles controlling the wrist position need to be somewhat tense whereas the hips and upper arm usually benefit from being as loose as you're sleeping until the disc is about to release. Provided your hips won't twist you to wrong directions. In that case a little more tension to twist only on horizontal plane for flat releases is a good idea. But you should examine what your legs are doing if you lean to the sides first when planning to throw flat releases.

Muscle control for the late acceleration in the elbow chop then wrist snap was at first difficult for me. I got the timing ok much earlier than I really got more power to the elbow chop and wrist snap. What drove the feeling of the good power generation late in the throw home for me was trying to jump putt with hip twist in the reach back and pulling the disc a little behind my left side in the reach back. Using a wide diameter mid I lack the power and accelerating ability to throw to 200' almost all of the time with the above jump putt. I've gotten to 200' only a couple of times.

When I first start to train like that in field practice after warming up by throwing drivers with x steps to 350' I usually can't get all of the jump putts to 140'. That's where the teaching part comes in. Trying to bulge the muscles by trying to move quicker often lessens distance. That muscle tension has to be lessened and the only way I've found to move quicker is to find the optimal plyometric loading (please search the definition and discussions of it for quicker learning) in the reach back and a quick late acceleration for maximum wrist (plyometric) loading. All the while maintaining proper form. A breakdown in form achieving maximum power and spin generation doesn't usually give the best possible distance.
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Postby felixtibs » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:00 am

Ok, here is an update of my first practice:

I took a standing position with my basket 100' out in the field, dead ahead. My feet were shoulder width apart, nose over toes, slight knee and hip flexion.

Starting with the disc at my L shoulder i slowly accelerated it across my right nipple and attempted to release out in front me with a snap. My results were varied but much more predictable:

1) Some shots were being released to the right in a straight line, that is to say not straight ahead but past the point of release
2)Some shots were dead ahead but short and low
3)Some shots only held straight at the proper height for a distance and then came careening down the left
4)1 made it in at 130', one clipped the chains!

now I can be happy knowing that the first time I attempt to untrain myself it will be difficult for some time. I was not experiencing the same turning over problem I had with mids and putters before.

Does this sound like I am on the right track? I will try and upload a video that shows my practice soon to help clarify the matter.

relearning is tough!
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Postby Star Shark » Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:16 pm

black udder wrote:Understand that Aaron has loony arm speed though. If you can do that, great, but it's not mandatory to throw well.


The scary part is that's Aaron with the new slower arm speed. Go look at the first video he posted on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw0HJ4uaSAY

I was half expecting his arm to come out of socket and go as far as the disc.
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Postby black udder » Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:38 pm

felixtibs wrote:Ok, here is an update of my first practice:

I took a standing position with my basket 100' out in the field, dead ahead. My feet were shoulder width apart, nose over toes, slight knee and hip flexion.

Starting with the disc at my L shoulder i slowly accelerated it across my right nipple and attempted to release out in front me with a snap. My results were varied but much more predictable:

1) Some shots were being released to the right in a straight line, that is to say not straight ahead but past the point of release
2)Some shots were dead ahead but short and low
3)Some shots only held straight at the proper height for a distance and then came careening down the left
4)1 made it in at 130', one clipped the chains!

now I can be happy knowing that the first time I attempt to untrain myself it will be difficult for some time. I was not experiencing the same turning over problem I had with mids and putters before.

Does this sound like I am on the right track? I will try and upload a video that shows my practice soon to help clarify the matter.

relearning is tough!


Sounds like you have the idea, just need practice. The short that careened down on the left was probably nose up. You'll find that if you throw putters you'll need a little bit of height - they'll take some nose up, but not a ton. Just keep it up. You practice for a couple weeks and I would think you'll be surprised at the results. Give yourself 6 months and it should make a huge difference. Just remember that, for the time being, you are learning, so if you play a round, give yourself a break - think of next year as your improved golf game. This year is all learning and practice -- you'll have less heartache.
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Postby masterbeato » Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:01 pm

Here is a couple different videos with slower arm speed than Aaron D....If it helps.

http://s16.photobucket.com/albums/b6/Staplesbubble/?action=view&current=efdbda19.pbr

And one from the back...

http://s16.photobucket.com/albums/b6/Staplesbubble/?action=view&current=9d84d01a.pbr

I have pretty slow arm speed in comparison to most people I think. But smooth is what counts the most.

Good Luck on the study of DG and never give up on trying to learn more.
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Postby felixtibs » Wed Sep 17, 2008 3:30 pm

A YEAR!!!!

I was just growing accustomed to impressing everyone around here with my big throws. Nobody else around here is throwing anything 300'. First time I threw for my gf she was blown away when she saw me!

BUT

I can feel the decreased demand on my body and the increased accuracy. Your help has been invaluable, I will be sure to update with a new video as soon as I can.
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Postby JR » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:06 am

felixtibs wrote:Ok, here is an update of my first practice:

I took a standing position with my basket 100' out in the field, dead ahead. My feet were shoulder width apart, nose over toes, slight knee and hip flexion.

Starting with the disc at my L shoulder i slowly accelerated it across my right nipple and attempted to release out in front me with a snap. My results were varied but much more predictable:

1) Some shots were being released to the right in a straight line, that is to say not straight ahead but past the point of release
2)Some shots were dead ahead but short and low
3)Some shots only held straight at the proper height for a distance and then came careening down the left
4)1 made it in at 130', one clipped the chains!

now I can be happy knowing that the first time I attempt to untrain myself it will be difficult for some time. I was not experiencing the same turning over problem I had with mids and putters before.

Does this sound like I am on the right track? I will try and upload a video that shows my practice soon to help clarify the matter.

relearning is tough!


Sounds like a great start! Congratulations!!!

I use a stance where my left leg is farther back than my right one for those jump putts with twisting hips and shoulders at the reach back. What I found was that my muscle control ad power suck so much that only a little reach back yielded added distance. Therefore only reaching back to a little behind the left side. In warming up and getting to find the optimal motions and acceleration points and reminding myself how to utilize the muscles for great late acceleration I also spray a lot with varied distance and nose angles in the beginning each session. This is about 4 months new to me.

Not turning over discs happens because of a couple of things generally. Lower arm speed not twisting the joints to wrong positions and speed/spin ratio plus absolute speed of the disc vs the wind not exceeding what the disc was designed for. Disc choice for the latter problem and maximizing spin on the disc while if necessary pulling arm pull speed down are the solutions. Even some max distance speed 11 and above discs need slower than max arm pull speeds in headwinds for hyzer flip to flat throws. Or consistency depends on not only compensating initial hyzer angle and the wind direction and speed not changing.

How do you command the wind to stay constant for consistent throws? Therefore doing anything to maximize spin on the disc is gonna be helpful if you can harness the benefits. Added spin will keep the disc flying longer in the angle it's at. If you've accustomed to throwing a disc low and annied a bit with added spin the disc will stay annied to the ground. Add headwinds and the need for less anny/more hyzer and possibly higher throws becomes mandatory or you need to switch to a more wind beating more high speed overstable disc. Or pull arm speed. Nobody can add infinitely more spin so pulling arm speed or discing up are the only solutions when adjusting angles and height won't work. This wil happen at some time. Good luck throwing a Rattler or Whitler in howling headwinds at 400' power.

Nose angle plays a large part here too. A nose down throw will fly faster than a nose flat throw late in the throw retarding the onset of flexing back to fade from an anny.
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