Giving up the box. Winner of hole refuses throwing 1st.

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Giving up the box. Winner of hole refuses throwing 1st.

Postby VADISCgolfer » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:41 pm

This guy and I were playing a round and keeping score.

I like to play the following way: whomever won the last hole, goes first (throws first) on the next hole.

He started saying all this crap like he "concedes the box". Like I have to throw first because he wants to give up the "option" to go first.

Can't I just force the rulebook and he is required to go first? Does he really have an option?

Whomever wins the last hole does not get to choose who goes first on the next hole, right?
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Postby Chuck Kennedy » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:15 pm

During PDGA play, the winner of the previous hole goes first. During casual play, you can do it however you want. Technically, the player who won the previous hole earns "the honor" to play first. In theory, they should have the right to pass on playing first but that's not how the rule is written.
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Postby some call me...tim? » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:16 pm

Hmm, never thought about the legality of this before. A couple weekends ago, I was playing a sanctioned tourney, and we were running low on daylight. I had the cards, and was busy trying to get them straight. I was first on the box, but I told the one of the guys (second in the lineup) that he could go ahead and throw while I was getting my stuff straight. He threw, and then I went after him. I know that's not the usual way of doing things, but it didn't even cross my mind that it might be illegal. :?
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Postby Chuck Kennedy » Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:43 pm

The flow of play rule is early in the book at 801.02C: "... To facilitate flow of play, a player who is not farthest away may play if the away player consents."

I think the meaning of this rule has been expanded to include letting other players play out of order on the tee if they are ready and you're supposed to throw next. Since you have the honors in the same way as "being out" on throws from the fairway, the assumption is that you can let others go ahead on the tee. However, the request has to come from a player who is not next in order. If no one asks to go ahead, then the player who is out, or with the honors, has to play and can't force someone to go before them. Playing out of order can occur regularly on holes where players take turns going ahead to spot on courses with lots of rough.
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Postby VADISCgolfer » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:05 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:However, the request has to come from a player who is not next in order. If no one asks to go ahead, then the player who is out, or with the honors, has to play and can't force someone to go before them.


That is what I was wondering. If the second-in-line thrower doesn't want to go first, he or she isn't required to.
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Postby sleepy » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:34 am

I've always thought the winner of the previous hole should go last on the next hole as their reward. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have three people of similar ability (assuming you're in a tournament with divisions) drive ahead of me so I can use their throws to judge the wind, see what disc and line they chose, etc.

Going first means you're the 'wind dummy'. :P


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Postby tumpsi » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:44 am

sleepy wrote:I've always thought the winner of the previous hole should go last on the next hole as their reward. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have three people of similar ability (assuming you're in a tournament with divisions) drive ahead of me so I can use their throws to judge the wind, see what disc and line they chose, etc.

Going first means you're the 'wind dummy'. :P


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Me too.
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Postby Grayson » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:43 pm

When the wind is blowing hard, I too don't like going first, but otherwise I prefer to have the box if I shot the best. There something to be said for having the box and not giving it back up, it kind adds a little extra psychological advantage. If you have the box for 5 straight holes and have taken the lead, they all go up to the next hole and watch you pin it close to another basket, it really makes them press a little too hard.

I don't think there should be any rules about the right to cede the box. I don't think there should be any penalties for those who wish to cede the box and the others on the card prefer to do so. If it speeds up the pace of the game, and everyone is cool with that, fine. But writing out a set of rules for what happens when the person with the box wants to give up the right to go first, and what each player in line has the right to do, that just seems unneccesary and a little overkill. I know the rule book will be continued to be revised and expanded, but I'd rather keep the expansion of the rulebook to a minimum and only add to it if a legitimate issue comes up. This just seems a little petty to put in. I've had this situation come up a bunch of times, and usually the other people on the card are cool with it, and are pretty laid back. but maybe i'd appriciate a rule like this a little more if there was someone who was way too uptight and strict (we've all played with the guy who's looking to add a stroke to your game).
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Postby 13paceseast » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:00 am

it's your box. you own it. you throw first.
if you cede the box to me and i don't want to throw, then you are throwing first.

i personally like being first for the reason mentioned above.
when i stick one close, it makes you try a little harder and that;s when most people make mistakes.
catch me if you can.
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Postby Fritz » Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:12 am

I absolutely HATE, not having the Box. lol, I love to throw first, and hate it when I lose the position. People that don't want to use the box are scared of making a mistake and want to see what other people are doing on the hole. That's why he gives up the box. Me I love going first cause I can set the tone for the hole and psych out my opponents.
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Postby vonDrehle » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:28 pm

When playing casual rounds we normally let whoever won first unless they are taking there getting to the hole. During tournaments I have had the box and told them they could go ahead and go. But was mainly due to the large hill we just climbed and the fact that they were in much better shape than me.
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Postby SkaBob » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:54 pm

I just like having a wind dummy or two. A lot of the courses here can have all sorts of twisty wind. It's handy to be able to see which way it's blowing half way down the fairway if it's kinda windy out...
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Postby reallybadputter » Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:33 pm

sleepy wrote:I've always thought the winner of the previous hole should go last on the next hole as their reward. I don't know about you, but I'd much rather have three people of similar ability (assuming you're in a tournament with divisions) drive ahead of me so I can use their throws to judge the wind, see what disc and line they chose, etc.

Going first means you're the 'wind dummy'. :P


sleepy


But if you are playing on a course with squirrely winds where seeing your opponents tee first is a real advantage, then is it fair that you happened to be last on the card on the first hole, get to see everyone tee, and then at least equal everyone's scores, why should you get to keep that artificial advantage for the whole round?

This way if you're relatively equal, and having a wind dummy is really an advantage, you get to take turns being the dummy...
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Postby black udder » Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:28 pm

I know everybody jokes about loving a wind dummy, but really, if you *know* what you're doing in the wind, you shouldn't need one.

You have no idea what others are doing with their shots. Maybe they released with a touch of anhyzer by accident. Maybe they release early. Most of the time what the guy in front of you does in a wind just screws you. If he parks it, more pressure on you. If he screws it up, how often was it something you didn't know or couldn't predict? Now maybe you're scrambling for a new disc or a new route based of his screwed up shot. And why? Because you don't have the confidence to throw the shot you already planned in your head.

Can't tell you how many times I've joked about having a wind dummy and they go and throw a pancake or spike hyzer or some crazy ass shot I hadn't even thought of and would never throw. So it doesn't help me at all. I'd rather go first, like Fritz, and put the pressure on them.
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