A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

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Re:

Postby MIdiscgolfer » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:08 pm

Shaolintrained wrote:If I'm not mistaken, some people are trying to support a "Stand and Deliver" rule that would illegalize a run-up before an upshot. If there's anyone out there that knows more about this consideration, please shed some more light. Personally, I think it's a bad idea.


I'm surprised that anyone hasn't heard about this one for a while it was as hot as the morality of not calling numbers on found discs. The argument is that when you take a run up on a second shot that almost noone actually hits the line extending back from the marker. Next time you are playing in a group watch their feet on the run up. See how many actually have their front foot touching the line.

A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line
of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in
803.04 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole
than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
(3) have all of his or her supporting points in-bounds.

The idea isn't to create a rule requiring "stand and deliver" but that if you enforce the rules already in place it will make the "stand and deliver" policy effectively a rule.

My opinion is that this goes against the spirit of the game. I don't believe it was the intention of the rules to prhibit a run up on the second shot and just because you can interpret the rules that way doesn't mean we should play that way. I don't know anyone that doesn't take a run up if needed.
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Re: A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:15 pm

My opinion is that this goes against the spirit of the game.

Sort of how you can't tee up your ball on the fairway in ball golf? Is that totally against the spirit of that game?

I'm not using that as justification for a stand & deliver rule, just pointing out that our sister game does have different rules for the fairway versus the tee.
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Re: A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

Postby Fritz » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:43 pm

I think with the courses getting longer, true par 4 and par 5 holes being made, the "line" behind the mini marker needs to be re-evaluated, maybe make a with-in 11.75" diameter or left, right, and behind the mini marker or something. It should be an easy fix, and still allow people to do a run up. Removing the run up, would hurt the sport in my opinion.
I have a great shot of Cale throwing and it definitely looks like a foot fault. It's really close, it might be with-in the 11.75" but it's really close.
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Re: A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

Postby rehder » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:39 am

The thing is that while you often maybe could call footfaults on the runup. You wont have enough people noticing if one was committed on a wide open stance. Such as in a fairway, nor should you unless its really bad footfault, because the player didnt have anything to gain by intentionally comitting a footfault. (IMHO). But footfaults become important where people have a less than ideal stance in bushes or near tress and such. Because here the player may gain immensly from making a footfault, and thus are much more prone to intentionally making a footfault. Often these are stand and deliver type shots, so its also easier to see if they are making a footfault.
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Re: A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

Postby Fritz » Mon Oct 27, 2008 6:40 am

rehder wrote:The thing is that while you often maybe could call footfaults on the runup. You wont have enough people noticing if one was committed on a wide open stance. Such as in a fairway, nor should you unless its really bad footfault, because the player didnt have anything to gain by intentionally comitting a footfault. (IMHO). But footfaults become important where people have a less than ideal stance in bushes or near tress and such. Because here the player may gain immensly from making a footfault, and thus are much more prone to intentionally making a footfault. Often these are stand and deliver type shots, so its also easier to see if they are making a footfault.


Very true, and I totally agree. You have nothing to gain from a footfault on a fairway run up, most times, you throw from further back, so if anything you'll be shorter.
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Re: A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

Postby black udder » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:57 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:
My opinion is that this goes against the spirit of the game.

Sort of how you can't tee up your ball on the fairway in ball golf? Is that totally against the spirit of that game?

I'm not using that as justification for a stand & deliver rule, just pointing out that our sister game does have different rules for the fairway versus the tee.



I'm with you most of the time, Chuck, but you also don't use a running start with ball golf either, do you? :)
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Re:

Postby black udder » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:02 am

geoloseth wrote:
Jager wrote:
geoloseth wrote:nope, you can mark your lie then run up as far as you want. You just can't pass your marker.


Ever jump putted?


No, I never liked jump putting. I found it to be a bit awkward. Jump putting is legal as long as you release the disc before you leave the ground. One thing I've noticed when playing with ams is that very rarely does anyone do a legal jump putt. Most of the time the leave the ground before they release the disc. If I were in a tournament I would have to call it a foot fault and I don't like to do that unless it helps someone out.


I don't get the "unless it helps someone out" part. Either call 'em or don't. Nothing personal to you, but somebody pointed out a long time ago, somewhere, it might be that the person who is not playing correctly that wins over the person who does because of the penalties that were not called. Nobody should want to win if they shouldn't. Thus, the penalties should be called.

I don't play in any major events, but I've heard that folks can be picky. With that in mind, when I play casual rounds or smaller events, I'll advise players when they're breaking the rules. It's really for their own benefit.
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Re: Re:

Postby Fritz » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:15 am


No, I never liked jump putting. I found it to be a bit awkward. Jump putting is legal as long as you release the disc before you leave the ground. One thing I've noticed when playing with ams is that very rarely does anyone do a legal jump putt. Most of the time the leave the ground before they release the disc. If I were in a tournament I would have to call it a foot fault and I don't like to do that unless it helps someone out.

I don't get the "unless it helps someone out" part. Either call 'em or don't. Nothing personal to you, but somebody pointed out a long time ago, somewhere, it might be that the person who is not playing correctly that wins over the person who does because of the penalties that were not called. Nobody should want to win if they shouldn't. Thus, the penalties should be called.

I don't play in any major events, but I've heard that folks can be picky. With that in mind, when I play casual rounds or smaller events, I'll advise players when they're breaking the rules. It's really for their own benefit.


I always mention it to someone, even if it is casual or not. If they get into a bad habit you can really screw up their game and development.
I always let them know in a nice way too. I wait until after they are done and while we walk up to the basket or next shot, I mention to them if they did something wrong in a quit way.

I was called in my first Pro event on a falling putt, because I didn't set down my back foot after I putted. I putted, knew it was in, bend down after I released the putt, grabbed my mini and walked forward to get my disc and never showed balance. It was silly, but the guy who called me on it, told me when I came back from the basket, that would be a foot fault, I wanted to just let you know so that it doesn't cost you a stroke in a major. Next time, make sure you bring that back foot down before you get your mini and walk forward.

I thanked him and now I dont' pick my mini up before I set my back foot.
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Re: A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:25 am

I'm with you most of the time, Chuck, but you also don't use a running start with ball golf either, do you?

No. But the point is that we essentially don't differentiate between what a player may do when throwing from the tee versus a throw from the fairway whereas the tee is the difference in ball golf. Not saying we need to emulate BG by any means, but some have suggested that requiring stand & deliver for fairway throws would be our equivalent to the more restrictive 'not teeing up' that BG uses. In addition, we don't do a very good job calling foot faults so a "stand & deliver" rule might also reduce that problem.

Some don't think a player has an advantage if they foot fault by a few inches on an open fairway throw. However, it's the fact that it takes some attention to make sure you hit the mark within 12 inches behind the marker that matters, not the few inches in the length of your throw if you miss it. Imagine if a baseball hitter was required to look down at his shoes briefly once the pitcher released the throw before he was allowed to swing. I suspect that quick shift of concentration would drop batting averages if it were required. If you don't have to worry about hitting the mark on a runup, it's one less thing that might go wrong on your throw.
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Re: A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

Postby Fritz » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:31 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:
I'm with you most of the time, Chuck, but you also don't use a running start with ball golf either, do you?

No. But the point is that we essentially don't differentiate between what a player may do when throwing from the tee versus a throw from the fairway whereas the tee is the difference in ball golf. Not saying we need to emulate BG by any means, but some have suggested that requiring stand & deliver for fairway throws would be our equivalent to the more restrictive 'not teeing up' that BG uses. In addition, we don't do a very good job calling foot faults so a "stand & deliver" rule might also reduce that problem.

Some don't think a player has an advantage if they foot fault by a few inches on an open fairway throw. However, it's the fact that it takes some attention to make sure you hit the mark within 12 inches behind the marker that matters, not the few inches in the length of your throw if you miss it. Imagine if a baseball hitter was required to look down at his shoes briefly once the pitcher released the throw before he was allowed to swing. I suspect that quick shift of concentration would drop batting averages if it were required. If you don't have to worry about hitting the mark on a runup, it's one less thing that might go wrong on your throw.



Very good point Chuck. I didn't think about that.
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Re: A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:33 am

I thanked him and now I dont' pick my mini up before I set my back foot.

That's not necessary. If you could stand on one leg for maybe a count to 3, that would be balance. Retaining balance only means you can't have any supporting point hit the ground in front of your mark before progressing toward the basket. You can putt and fall back on your butt like a sitcom pratfall and be legal as long as all of you stays behind the mark.

The definition of 'walking' is to progressively lose and regain your balance while moving forward. :)
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Re: A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

Postby rehder » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:03 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:
I'm with you most of the time, Chuck, but you also don't use a running start with ball golf either, do you?

No. But the point is that we essentially don't differentiate between what a player may do when throwing from the tee versus a throw from the fairway whereas the tee is the difference in ball golf. Not saying we need to emulate BG by any means, but some have suggested that requiring stand & deliver for fairway throws would be our equivalent to the more restrictive 'not teeing up' that BG uses. In addition, we don't do a very good job calling foot faults so a "stand & deliver" rule might also reduce that problem.

Some don't think a player has an advantage if they foot fault by a few inches on an open fairway throw. However, it's the fact that it takes some attention to make sure you hit the mark within 12 inches behind the marker that matters, not the few inches in the length of your throw if you miss it. Imagine if a baseball hitter was required to look down at his shoes briefly once the pitcher released the throw before he was allowed to swing. I suspect that quick shift of concentration would drop batting averages if it were required. If you don't have to worry about hitting the mark on a runup, it's one less thing that might go wrong on your throw.


This is true, but most players dont look at the mini, but learn after a lot of practice what distance is a legal runup. Which means that good players almost seldom make the footfault. The ones most prone to making footfaults will be the players with the least amount of skill. These players already have plenty to worry about when throwing, as their consistency usually isnt that great. This doesnt mean I wont point it out if it happens. I just think that I would very rarely give a warning/stroke unless it was in the aforementioned way of intentionally gaining an advantage.

Regarding the stand&deliver, I see your point, but I think it would be an unfortunate move for discgolf. Because as I see it, the development of long par 4's & 5's make discgolf more appealing for differing nummber of reasons. Now you could argue you could still have shorter par 4's & 5's, but Im not sure that spectators would get the same wowfactor from the shorter shots, as when the topgolfers really crank it.
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Re: A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

Postby Fritz » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:14 am

I'm a competitive swimmer, and when I do the back stroke, I have to know how many strokes to take before I do my flip turn, if I'm off by even half a stroke it can mean precious seconds and I lose the race or mean disaster and I smack the wall with my hand, my head or I miss the wall completely and really lose.

I use this same sort of training when I do my run up's on the fairway. I have trained myself to do this, so I don't have to conscientiously think ok, mini is coming up, look throw. I just know that after X# of steps, I'm in the legal launch zone and I release my disc.

rehder wrote:
Chuck Kennedy wrote:
I'm with you most of the time, Chuck, but you also don't use a running start with ball golf either, do you?

No. But the point is that we essentially don't differentiate between what a player may do when throwing from the tee versus a throw from the fairway whereas the tee is the difference in ball golf. Not saying we need to emulate BG by any means, but some have suggested that requiring stand & deliver for fairway throws would be our equivalent to the more restrictive 'not teeing up' that BG uses. In addition, we don't do a very good job calling foot faults so a "stand & deliver" rule might also reduce that problem.

Some don't think a player has an advantage if they foot fault by a few inches on an open fairway throw. However, it's the fact that it takes some attention to make sure you hit the mark within 12 inches behind the marker that matters, not the few inches in the length of your throw if you miss it. Imagine if a baseball hitter was required to look down at his shoes briefly once the pitcher released the throw before he was allowed to swing. I suspect that quick shift of concentration would drop batting averages if it were required. If you don't have to worry about hitting the mark on a runup, it's one less thing that might go wrong on your throw.


This is true, but most players dont look at the mini, but learn after a lot of practice what distance is a legal runup. Which means that good players almost seldom make the footfault. The ones most prone to making footfaults will be the players with the least amount of skill. These players already have plenty to worry about when throwing, as their consistency usually isnt that great. This doesnt mean I wont point it out if it happens. I just think that I would very rarely give a warning/stroke unless it was in the aforementioned way of intentionally gaining an advantage.

Regarding the stand&deliver, I see your point, but I think it would be an unfortunate move for discgolf. Because as I see it, the development of long par 4's & 5's make discgolf more appealing for differing nummber of reasons. Now you could argue you could still have shorter par 4's & 5's, but Im not sure that spectators would get the same wowfactor from the shorter shots, as when the topgolfers really crank it.
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Re: A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:30 am

I use this same sort of training when I do my run up's on the fairway. I have trained myself to do this, so I don't have to conscientiously think ok, mini is coming up, look throw. I just know that after X# of steps, I'm in the legal launch zone and I release my disc.

That's my point in that whether it's training that gets you where you don't have to look or having to look if you haven't trained, there's a reason for paying attention to foot faults and not providing the advantage to those who haven't paid attention.
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Re: A PDGA Rule Question About A Second Shot

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:34 am

Now you could argue you could still have shorter par 4's & 5's, but Im not sure that spectators would get the same wowfactor from the shorter shots, as when the topgolfers really crank it.

We have few spectators. Frankly, I'd be more impressed with an accurate, long shot flat footed than with a runup. I guarantee that when you see a pro like Schwebby, who has thrown a 300-ft thumber from his knees, execute a shot with no runup, there's more of a Wow! factor there.
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