Disc Golf Lessons Survey

Disc Golf Talk

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Disc Golf Lessons Survey

Postby DJayhawk » Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:21 am

Blake,

In regards to your DG lesson survery (I couldn't reply on that thread) I think it would be helpful for you to put approximate cost in your questions. Like what do you mean a Decent amount?

When I was a ball golfer, every season I payed the same instructor $45 for 30-45 mins of lessons, more or lesson he was like my swing coach. Looking over my swing pin pointing areas that I needed to work on and such. Then I'd come back for a follow up after a couple months let him watch me and re-evaulate again.

That being said as I have become more and more addicted to playing DG, I wouldn't mind having some lessons or even just one. I just dont know where to go for them, unlike Ball Golf finding good instructors in DG is hard.

I hope that helps some.

-Dennis
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Postby Blake_T » Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:59 pm

the approximate costs vary a lot based upon what was to be offered. this season i have been approached by quite a few people about lessons and i'm trying to determine what would be "fair." as of now, i have given quite a few lessons but have yet to accept any cash, although i have accepted a burger after the round a few times.

basically, i was brainstorming ideas for various packages, and came up with a list of ideas... just haven't decided what appropriate costs would be.

1) throw a round with 1 person and give tips during the round and a summary afterwards (fee by the round)
2) throw a round with a group and give tips during the round and individual summaries afterwards (fee by the round based upon # of people)
3) field throwing with an individual, focus either on introductory lesson, overall technique, or learning specific shots (fee by the hour or by the evening)
4) field throwing with a group, focus either on introductory lesson, overall technique, or learning specific shots (fee by the hour or by the evening)
5) putting lessons, group or individual (fee by the hour or the evening)

i was also considering two types of lessons for 3-5, one that would involve base instruction, another that would involve recording video and either watch it as we worked, or produce a video/dvd. the high-tech version would be 2-4x more expensive than just basic training.

the standard fees from other people who give lessons seems to be about $10-20 per hour and i would be looking at something similar, although probably on the less expensive side for throwing a round and more expensive side for field training, as this is a lot less fun for me.

basically, for the time being, i will work with any player that will take it seriously and is actively competing in the scene. i just want people to treat it seriously. what i do not want are for people who will not show up for a set time/day, will not work on the techniques we have been working on, etc.

i used to give guitar lessons (for free) and i can say one of the more frustrating things about it is when you set aside a block of time and meet with someone and found they haven't played at all in the 2 weeks since you last met, so you really aren't in a position to move forward.

in the survey i left the definitions of price fairly vague intentionally. by "inexpensive" i mean $20 or less per lesson.

by "decent amount" i was looking more at say $60 an hour for a "high tech" session, where players would have instant video playback of their throw where it could be slowed down and strenghts/weaknesses pinpointed for them to see (rather than just being told) and in the end, a dvd/vhs copy.
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Postby Chains » Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:22 pm

Good idea, I would definately pay for that. Do you travel to....let's say CHICAGO? :wink:
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Postby Blake_T » Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:03 pm

you are actually about the 5th person from illinois to request me there.

i have no plans to travel beyond possibly attending a few major tournaments as a spectator.

i will, however, consider travelling on certain terms:
1) my travel and transportation is covered. people are welcome to pay for my flights in both directions or come pick me up and drive me there. no busses/trains please. i will consider driving up to 4 hours each direction but i hate driving (i don't mind just riding) and you would have to convince me why i should do it.

2) my lodging is covered. this can be a 5-start hotel or "hey, i have a couch." i do require that i will not catch any form of disease from whatever i'm sleeping on and an insect-free bathroom.

3) my food is covered. this can be a fancy dinner or peanut butter sandwiches or anything in between. i also require large amounts of caffine in the morning and plenty of hydration in hot weather.

4) if i have to miss work, i will need to be reimbursed for lost wages, which at the moment is a whopping $10 an hour.

as of right now, if someone was willing to do this, i would do lessons for free.
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Postby shanest » Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:36 pm

Blake- what would it take to get you to review a video clip or two for me?
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Postby Blake_T » Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:21 pm

if they are small, send them to me via email. if they are larger than say 2mb, stick it somewhere for me to download and send me a link or reach me via messenger program.
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Postby shanest » Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:19 pm

I have a pretty small mpg online.
http://gdstour.com/team/videos/shanedrive2.mpg
I took it with a digital camera so I can't make it any larger other than just increasing the size and making it pixelly, so sorry about that.
Many thanks though, Shane
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Postby Blake_T » Mon May 02, 2005 12:14 am

have taken a look at it. will inspect in more thoroughly in the next day or two and make more comments.
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Postby Blake_T » Mon May 02, 2005 7:38 pm

Shane, unfortunately all the frames i usually check aren't available, but i will do my best to interpret it.

your form is solid, but there are a few fine tuning things that may help.

1) you use a LOT of runup and then slow down quite a bit when it comes to the x-step. this isn't really a big deal, but it may help you out when footing is bad to condense a bit.

2) you could get a bit more elbow bend as you pull through. this would probably add some D if you could pull it off without screwing up your form.

3) again, i can't get a frame at the hit, but it appears you were throwing slight hyzers (5-15 degree range). if this is true, your follow through was pretty much straight across which is going to make the discs turn a little more than if you followed through higher or on the angle of the hyzer. a flat follow through on a slight hyzer if the disc doesn't leave sufficiently early will act as a bit of wrist roll.

4) there appears to be a slight mistiming with your lower body rotation. your initial pivot from plant to toes pointing at the target appears to be happening a hair late and/or your continuation of your lower body entering the follow through happens a bit early. i can't tell if it's 1 or both.

if the rotation is late, you aren't getting as much power from your hips as possible. if the continuation is early, you aren't focusing as much power into the hit as you could.

with most of the top pros, their first pivot starts right before the hit and generally the continuation doesn't begin until after their arm has followed through behind the plane of their chest.

most of these are minor things and i can't say how much work they'll take to correct, or how much they'll add if you do adjust them. they are just my read into the video so far.
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Postby shanest » Mon May 02, 2005 8:12 pm

The only thing that's bad with these videos is that it's me in a field going for max D, hence the much longer run up and the wrist flattening. Is it still not a good idea to flatten the wrist given I wanted an s-curve?

I can't thank you enough for this advice Blake! It is just the stuff I was looking for because right now I feel like even with pretty good form I don't know what to correct for more potential, so thanks for the very precise help, i definitely owe you.

What's the best way to work on the timing of my rotation? Conciously trying to get it earlier? What would be the result that I would "feel" in the form?
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Postby Blake_T » Mon May 02, 2005 10:15 pm

i'm one of the rare breed that gets max d with the same technique i use for my normal golf shots. generally it's because making a disc work comes through pure technique.

in my opinion, any time you torque for a shot that is supposed to get you to a spot relatively straight away you are adding unpredictability. i can make discs S from a hyzer with no torque, i just have to throw slower or less overstable discs. you can torque for an S, but the discs you had in that video aren't really those kinds of discs... generally they hold the best line for most d with a pure speed turn. the thing with torque is that it makes the turn/fade behavior much less predictable. i can't tell you it's bad if you can make it work, but imo, you'll be better off in the long run on s-curves if you throw stuff you can s without torque.

there's a lot of other factors in fine tuning your technique that are almost intangible unless you know what you are looking for. focusing on snap/rip is a big one but very hard to teach/feel. because you weren't getting tremendous lift, i would say that is the main area you could improve in. if you watch the 2003 worlds video and markus kallstrom, you will notice his dx beast throws often go well over 30' high and upwards of 450'. the trajectory he takes is what a 350' powered player would use to throw 15' high... the difference is that his disc just keeps rising... a similar thing happens when most players throw 150 class discs.

as for timing the rotation, when i'm really feeling it, my rhythm of the things i was talking about is sort of: plant-pivot-rip-spin and they feel like distinct parts of the throw. your pivot/rip seem to be part of the same motion and continue directly into the spin. the big thing is just to remember that when your power is focused, your lower body will not continue to pivot through until the momentum from your follow-through forces it to (that is, when your arm/upper body can't turn any farther without your foot turning more, and this will start from your toes pointing nearly forward). i think if you focus on the continuation of the pivot happening later, that is the first step... and help you develop more concise power which should help the timing of the first pivot on its own.

if you really want to work TRUE d, vs. modern d... i have a suggestion. i call increases in "true d" = increase in D caused by technique improvements and increases in "modern d" = increase in D caused by disc choice. if you can get ahold of some d cyclones or dx cheetahs or gazelles or something like that (pre-1998 molds)... work on getting those to 400'. those are the discs that will really help you develop a lot of these things without needing my advice as you will learn a LOT of tricks and body adjustments, etc.

also, a lot of the timing issues are going to become more apparant... which for training purposes is a good thing. slower discs with more air friction are going to answer your question about flattening your wrist in a way that only experience can show. you will also see the affects more clearly of snap increase, and the like.

hope this helps.
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Postby TexasOutlaw » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:45 am

Lessons are a great idea. I wouldn't mind a lesson now and then kinda as a refresher course. Unfortunatley, work and other circumstances keeps me away from playing at times. I would play every day if I could (I do when I have time off), but time does not allow. After working the last weekend, I find that I have gone 2 weeks without playing.

One thing to consider about pricing...Perhaps have varying levels depending on the instruction. I guess what I'm getting at is the following. I know that at least in the south Texas area, many players pick up the game due to the fact that it is relatively inexpensive. I never played ball golf, but other disc players that I know took up the game because they could not afford green fees. Perhaps have 1 hour putting, or "quick" round lessons for around the 20 buck area. Then, offer the 60-80 dollar lessons for those more advanced (and who can afford it).

Since I do not intend to play in the PDGA tour, I would not really need anything high tech. Actually, I find that I can correct myself and improve just by asking (and getting the appropriate responses) questions.

I like to travel to play different courses, so maybe we will actually get to play a round some time.
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