Unplayable lie?

[RustyP]

This past summer/fall we had some nasty storms blow through town that downed several large trees on our course...this left us with a giant 6' tall tree-trunk in the middle of the fairway for Hole 8 at Springlake Park. The trunk is mostly hollow - the side facing the basket is lower than the side facing the tee, and there is also a small hole near the ground facing the basket.

Yesterday I manged to land my Firebird inside the trunk. It deflected off another tree right next to it, and then landed inside the trunk and fell all the way to the bottom, still inside. When I got to the disc, it was sitting inside near the small hole on the side of the trunk facing the basket. I could fit my mini inside the trunk to mark my lie, but couldn't fit my foot inside to take my stance...and if I placed my foot directly behind the tree in-line with the mini, it was still more than 30cm away from the marker.

Would this be considered an unplayable lie, or is there another rule that would apply here?

[AciDBatH666]

I believe you'd have to take your lie behind the obstacle in a straight line from your lie and the basket.

803.06 Unplayable Lie

A. A player may declare his or her lie to be an unplayable lie. The player is the sole judge as to whether the lie is unplayable. The unplayable lie may be relocated to a new lie that is: (1) No closer to the hole, on the line of play and within five meters of the unplayable lie; or (2) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved, from an approximate lie as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official. The original throw plus one penalty throw are counted in the player's score.

Now I had an unplayable lie in the last tourney I was in, and the pro on the card awarded me with a 1m move, and no penalty stroke. So I guess the penalty stroke is at your groups discretion since it looks like the rule says 1 stroke is taken. it also says that the lie is considered "unplayable" by the player. So it's your choice

[curt]

You could declare this an unplayable lie if you wanted to, however it is not necessary. The rules state that if a solid object prevents you from taking a legal stance, you are allowed to take a lie directly behind the object, without taking an unplayable.

803.04.E If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters
directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately
behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of
803.04 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

[ferretdance03]

...So I guess the penalty stroke is at your groups discretion since it looks like the rule says 1 stroke is taken. it also says that the lie is considered "unplayable" by the player. So it's your choice

If you take an unplayable, you are awarded with a stroke. No discretion. The pro you played with either didn't know the rules, or like the majority of tourney players, ignored them.

[RustyP]

You could declare this an unplayable lie if you wanted to, however it is not necessary. The rules state that if a solid object prevents you from taking a legal stance, you are allowed to take a lie directly behind the object, without taking an unplayable.

803.04.E If a large solid obstacle prevents a player from taking a legal stance within 30 centimeters
directly behind the marker disc, the player shall take his or her stance immediately
behind that obstacle on the line of play. The player must comply with all the provisions of
803.04 A other than being within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

Thanks Curt...I must have skipped right past that section

[mark12b]

...So I guess the penalty stroke is at your groups discretion since it looks like the rule says 1 stroke is taken. it also says that the lie is considered "unplayable" by the player. So it's your choice

If you take an unplayable, you are awarded with a stroke. No discretion. The pro you played with either didn't know the rules, or like the majority of tourney players, ignored them.

yeah, and in the rules the "1m move" only applies to relief from OB. the relief from an unplayable/undesirable lie is up to 5m. but in this case it sounds like the large solid obstacle rule would apply first, *then* it would be up to the player if they wanted to move back (and take the penalty stroke) from there.

[ferretdance03]

Agreed.

[AciDBatH666]

...So I guess the penalty stroke is at your groups discretion since it looks like the rule says 1 stroke is taken. it also says that the lie is considered "unplayable" by the player. So it's your choice

If you take an unplayable, you are awarded with a stroke. No discretion. The pro you played with either didn't know the rules, or like the majority of tourney players, ignored them.

yeah, and in the rules the "1m move" only applies to relief from OB. the relief from an unplayable/undesirable lie is up to 5m. but in this case it sounds like the large solid obstacle rule would apply first, *then* it would be up to the player if they wanted to move back (and take the penalty stroke) from there.

Maybe that's why he let me take it with no stroke. My lie was right on the edge of a ditch. I landed on a root and it stuck, and it was sort of in mid-air. To stand behind it meant I'd be standing directly in water/ob.
And I was on the last card of the 2nd round for Advanced. So he knew it wouldn't really matter what I did. I wouldn't either. When I get stuck on those cards I usually enjoy the rest of my time on the course and let ppl get away with 'reasonable' casual issues on my card.

[curt]

Thanks Curt...I must have skipped right past that section

No problem Rusty, its an easy one to read right past. It was at least my 6th or 7th read through of the rulebook before I noticed it, and its importance.

[Steady 26542]

I believe you could stand on top of the fallen tree. (If that was possible) Being behind your marker applies vertically as well. So even though you couldn't get your foot directly behind your marker you can be 3 feet above it and directly behind it.

Chuck?

[curt]

I never completely understood the conversation, and have absolutely no idea where the appropriate rules are, but I believe that would actually be considered above the playing surface (and thus you cannot take a legal stance on top of it)

the defn of the playing surface is: Playing Surface: The area below where the disc came to rest from which the stance for the next shot is taken. The playing surface is generally the ground but can be any surface deemed suitable for play by the tournament director or course official.

I remember there being a lengthy discussion of this on the PDGA boards, but don't remember the outcome and believe it is in the rules Q&A (which i can no longer find)

[Steady 26542]

I've played above the marker in tournaments before. My foot was still directly behind the marker on top of a solid object.

Chuck Kennedy will straighten this out.

[RustyP]

The tree "trunk" was at least 6' tall, mostly hollow, and very unstable...no way I was about to climb up there

[Chuck Kennedy]

Solid object rule applies here. Since a downed tree trunk is not normally considered a playing surface, unless it's permanent and the TD declares it as such, you would not play it on the tree trunk. You could move back just as far as necessary to get off the solid object with no penalty.