$44,000 per hole?

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$44,000 per hole?

Postby chainsmoker » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:56 pm

One of the local radio stations was talking about the new stimulus package and all of the pork in it. Austin Texas wants $800,000 for a disc golf course. The two hosts on the show were laughing their butts off. I know all of the money doesn't go into just the 18 holes themselves but that's a lot of money.
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby AciDBatH666 » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:25 pm

chainsmoker wrote:One of the local radio stations was talking about the new stimulus package and all of the pork in it. Austin Texas wants $800,000 for a disc golf course. The two hosts on the show were laughing their butts off. I know all of the money doesn't go into just the 18 holes themselves but that's a lot of money.



It's 36 holes. GET IT RIGHT!
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby Dig It » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:39 pm

What is the average cost of a 36 hole DG course?
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby roadkill » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:16 pm

DigIt wrote:What is the average cost of a 36 hole DG course?


Considering most courses are held in public parks that already exist and maintained by the local parks dept. I'd say the average cost is around $500 per hole. As in $275 for the basket, $75 for the tee sign, $100 for the teepad, and about $50 for the sleeve, lock and little bit of concrete used in installation.
At $500 per hole that would be $18,000.
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:27 pm

These excerpts are from an email Houck sent to our course designers group regarding the project:
- This is the thickest, nastiest property I have ever worked on. It is acre after acre of SOLID cedars, plus some occasionally unpleasant undergrowth. It's BRUTAL. Most of the time you can barely walk through it. Designing 900' holes when you can only see 50' in front of you is not always fun. The city actually gave us a couple guys with chain saws just to cut paths, so we could walk through it and try to figure out where we're going.

- This course is very hilly, by Austin standards. That means there are erosion concerns, and concerns about heavy machinery. The city decided to clear it all by hand.

- My best understanding of the $886,000 figure is that just less than half was for parking and pro shop. Just over half was for clearing and erosion-control measures.

- When it finally happens, this will be an amazing facility. Of course, how polished it is will depend on the final funding. If we got the whole $886,000 we would have unprecedented erosion-control measures and a very nice pro shop.
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby Leopard » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:18 pm

sweet, because with Disc Nation's storefront a whole <10 miles away, they really do need to spend approx $440,000 for parking and a pro shop. Texans will have none of this parking-on-grass bullshit. especially disc golfers. it's asphalt or die for us. and if there's not a rinky-dink pro shop selection on hole one, nobody will play there. that fact has been proven by the 17 of 18 local courses that do not have an on-site disc retailer. nobody plays the 17 that don't have plastic for sale.

time to scale back the project. bring on the courses, forget the pro shop and parking lot. boom, i cut it in half.
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:30 pm

Perhaps a little sour grapes in advance of potential competition (that is if it actually does get funded)? Not uncommon in the bigger disc golf markets. Isn't Houck's complex 45 minutes outside Austin the only other 36-holer in the area? This new complex will be pay-for-play so ya gotta have a Pro Shop anyway just like golf. I doubt there's ever been golf course installed that didn't build a pro shop on the premises even though a Golf Galaxy store was just down the street. :roll:
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby Leopard » Fri Feb 20, 2009 8:35 pm

Circle R is 45-60 minutes from Austin. 36 holes, FAN-TASTIC (except for eroded natural tee boxes). It is the only 36-holer in the area, but a 36-hole+ adventure can be had with ease in several areas in and around Austin. Circle R is now closed (again) and not open to the public, and the land is for sale. Future doesn't look good for CR... very sad for me and many others who loved it.

I'm against the expense of the Alvarez facility, for the time being -- but ONLY if it gets stimulus money to be completed as proposed. I think they could put it in for half the cost and develop it over time with regular taxes and bonds. Five years down the road, pave the parking lot and build a pro shop. As an Austinite I think the City has better and more stimulative projects to put the money toward, and I highly doubt that they would actually put stimulus money toward the facility. It's a lightning rod for bad press for Austin, for disc golf, and for Austin disc golf in particular. It was included last year in the list of Austin's "shovel-ready" projects, but nobody has said that they'd actually spend Stimulation on the project.

Not sure what you mean about sour grapes. I was hearing very cool things about this project for a long time while I worked for Houck, and I am excited as ever to see it come to fruition, especially with Circle R dying. I just hope that Austin does more stimulative things with stimulus money -- things that a greater part of the population can enjoy (if they aren't profiting from the cedar-whacking industry), and keeps Disc Golf Heaven under the normal bonds/taxes funding constraints. Most Austinites could give a damn if there's a backup at Pease. I'm not concerned about any existing retailer's traffic, if that's what you're saying. In that regard I am saying that a Pro Shop isn't crucial to launching the facility, in my opinion.

Short response -- I consider it low-priority where Austin's stimulus money is concerned. It would be GREAT to have the facility and I look forward to it. The huge black eye on Centex DG, not so much.
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:14 pm

I agree that this money won't produce many new jobs. On the other hand, how many jobs would $900,000 produce anywhere if the average cost of a construction employee is say $40,000/yr with benefits? If 2/3 of that project, $600K, is labor cost we employee 15 people for one year or 5 over 3 years. That's what $600K will buy you regardless whether it's construction for disc golf or towards a new road. And this project would generate income and ongoing work, unlike many other public works projects where the money could be spent.
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby Leopard » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:38 pm

i hear you Chuck.

my perspective is this -- i live within a mile of huge Apple, Sun, and Motive facilities, and you can't throw a Roc here without hitting a Dell employee. there are so many awesome small tech companies around here. the movie studio (former airport) just expanded. people commute to much smaller nearby towns to work at Walmart and HEB distribution centers. i can't help but think that stimulus money could bring more companies to Austin and really help the community. i would gladly give up that 36-holer at the prospect of massive and lasting employment opportunities. even if the $xxx,xxx for Alvarez isn't a huge drop in the bucket, i want Austin to use every drop as efficiently as possible. disc golf seems like a waste in that context... clear that cedar for Nike, not Joe Broke Stoner :)
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby Jesse B 707 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:29 am

:lol: "Joe Broke Stoner"
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby zj1002 » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:34 am

a pay to play course would bring in a lot of revenue assuming it is gonna be an amazing layout. i do agree having the pro shop there isn't 100% necessary. it is just more competition for places like PIAS where i have been shopping for years.
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby Working Stiff » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:27 pm

I love recreation. Nobody has to explain to me that recreation creates a greater quality of life for residents of a community, and the residual benefits of a happier, healthier workforce comes back to the employers.

However, this is an economic stimulus package in the midst of a deep recession heading for a depression. We need bang for the buck. We need jobs. Four jobs for $ 800,000+ doesn't cut it for me in the current context. You can't expect to build recreation facilities that do not create very many jobs to be profitable it you wasted the money that should have been used to help create jobs for the people who you expect to pay to use the recreation facility. If they don't have jobs, where are supposed to get money to buy $30.00 first-run Grooves?

Once the City is on its feet and has tax revenue for capital improvements rolling in from companies and their employees post-economic stimulus, then the money asked for the project seems in line for me. No problems. Just wait until the economy recovers before you try to tag it as pork to some bill.
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby JHern » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:02 pm

This money will be spread around more than you guys think...parking lot construction, pro shop construction, buying materials and supplies from around town, as well as the regular park employees, etc..

In the final analysis, the truth is that we don't have all year to sit around and argue about what the most effective stimulus would be...the more important thing is that the stimulus happen now, immediately. The bill has many strings attached, but the most important string is that it be spent within a very short time frame. I think this is really necessary. We'll need more stimulus down the road as well, but its time to get things moving and shaking.

The only thing worse for stimulus than projects being tagged by opponents as marginally pork barrel-ish are the kinds of fat cat tax cuts that those same opponents propose as an alternative.

Anyways, I'll travel to Austin some time, in part because of this course. There's some more stimulus for "y'all." Now put that in your pipe and smoke it. :D
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Re: $44,000 per hole?

Postby maks » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:33 pm

JHern wrote:This money will be spread around more than you guys think...parking lot construction, pro shop construction, buying materials and supplies from around town, as well as the regular park employees, etc..

In the final analysis, the truth is that we don't have all year to sit around and argue about what the most effective stimulus would be...the more important thing is that the stimulus happen now, immediately. The bill has many strings attached, but the most important string is that it be spent within a very short time frame. I think this is really necessary. We'll need more stimulus down the road as well, but its time to get things moving and shaking.

The only thing worse for stimulus than projects being tagged by opponents as marginally pork barrel-ish are the kinds of fat cat tax cuts that those same opponents propose as an alternative.

Anyways, I'll travel to Austin some time, in part because of this course. There's some more stimulus for "y'all." Now put that in your pipe and smoke it. :D

I concur
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