Water Rules

[Dogma]

I have a few questions about water. Let's say you're playing a course where water is OB, but the land on both sides of the stream is IB.

1. What if you throw over the stream, but you land on an island. Are you OB?

2. What if you throw over the stream and you land on a large rock in the middle of the stream. Are you OB? Does it matter if water is flowing under the rock?

3. What if you throw over the stream, but land on a large rock that is sticking out from shore. Are you OB? Does it matter if water is flowing under the portion of the rock where your disc is?

4. What if you throw over the stream and you land partially on a rock connected to shore, but you are also partially in the water. Are you OB?

5. What if you throw over the stream and you land partially on a rock in the middle of the stream, but partially in the water. Are you OB?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Y-Y-N-N-N-N-Y

[Dogma]

Sounds like it's all about the shoreline, and any/all islands are OB. Thanks Chuck!

[Chuck Kennedy]

Those are the answers with no further instruction from the TD. Of course, on a hole with the basket on an island, the island would be inbounds.

[Dogma]

If I needed to point those rules out to someone, what section of the rulebook should I be referencing? I'm assuming 803.09A regarding out-of-bounds? Or is there section I've missed that pertains more specifically to non-casual water?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Check out the Rules FAQ here for special OB situation explanations: http://www.pdga.com/faq

[Dogma]

Check out the Rules FAQ here for special OB situation explanations: http://www.pdga.com/faq

Sorry to trouble you Chuck, but I've read through the FAQs and didn't see anything applicable to islands. For what it's worth I'm thinking of an island that's more than twelve feet in diameter and has permanent vegetation on it. In other words, a true island. However, I can see how there could be some slippery slope arguments where someone would try to claim that anything big enough to hold their disc out of the water is an "island". Regardless, while I believe your explanation, I don't see anything in the rules or FAQs that specifically addresses islands. I can see how the "OB extends from shore to shore" argument makes sense, but I have also heard an argument being made for "completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area"(803.09A) to be interpreted as "surrounded by water" (in other words, "in the water"). In that case someone might argue the if the disc is dry it is IB. I'm not trying to nitpick, I'm just wanting to have something to point at since this issue comes up with some regularity on courses I play. Thanks!

[Chuck Kennedy]

Water itself is never OB automatically. It has to be declared by the TD as OB. By doing so in the case of a lake or creek, the line made by the water marks the outside line for the OB boundary by default, with any disc completely inside the boundaries being OB regardless whether wet or dry. As an aside, a water line is a weak definition for OB. If possible, OB should never be the boundary line between water and land. It should be a paint or stake line or some other permanent way to mark it so that the hole plays the same whether the water level is up or down. It also avoids issues were it's windy and the water line changes with waves, even a little bit.

The TD can change the default ruling for islands by specifically identifying the OB rules in more detail, especially when the target is on the island. Typically, islands defined as IB with or without a target or tee on them, are set up so people can access them without wading thru water. In the case of an island hole with a water filled moat around it, a big exposed rock or dry island inside the moat when the water level is down would still be OB even though the island with the pin is IB.

[Dogma]

Thanks Chuck. That helps a lot. I see your point about water itself being a bad OB line because it can move. I think a lot of my confusion has come from the slackness in our weekly doubles and low-key local tournaments. All the TD really says is "OK, we're playing two rounds. Water and pavement are OB. Go to your tees." Since I don't play bigger tournaments I'd forgotten that things would normally be better marked and better defined than that. Even for casual play though your explanations will be very helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to write them.