Out of Bounds with respect to?

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Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby Jeronimo » Wed May 27, 2009 3:34 pm

Easy question:

Is an out of bounds area always out of bounds?

example:

I'm throwing hole #4. It has clearly labled out of bounds to the left of the fairway. When i'm returning on hole 5, it does not call out hole #4's out of bounds in its description. However the area is still marked because it was out of bounds for hole #4.

So what happens if my throw lands in a different holes out of bounds area?
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby mark12b » Wed May 27, 2009 4:47 pm

sure, an area can be OB for one hole but not OB for another hole. it just depends on how the holes were designed.
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby Donkeypuncher » Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:12 am

That's a very good question. Usually if OB isn't listed on the sign, then it's far enough away that you would have to shank a disc nasty to get there. In that case, I think OB is the least of your worries. I've never run into that kind of situation so I'm not sure.

If you look at a course map it would be reasonable to think that anything marked OB applies to the course in general. And what about water hazards? If those are considered OB, then wouldn't it apply to every hole on the course?

There has to be some kind of rule about this in the rulebook, I'll look and see what I can find.
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby Bruce » Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:33 am

Donkeypuncher wrote:That's a very good question. Usually if OB isn't listed on the sign, then it's far enough away that you would have to shank a disc nasty to get there. In that case, I think OB is the least of your worries. I've never run into that kind of situation so I'm not sure.

If you look at a course map it would be reasonable to think that anything marked OB applies to the course in general. And what about water hazards? If those are considered OB, then wouldn't it apply to every hole on the course?

There has to be some kind of rule about this in the rulebook, I'll look and see what I can find.


I disagree, and you won't find a rule. The OB for each hole is independent. Sure, there may be OBs that are universally applied; the boundary of a park for example, but that is not the rule.

Take an island hole for example, where only the green is in bounds. Does that mean that the rest of the course is OB? :shock:
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed Jun 17, 2009 6:30 am

It's not uncommon for a course to have holes on both sides of a park road winding thru the course where "road and across" is OB on the holes that border the road. So the area for many complete holes is OB depending on which side of the road you are currently playing.
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby Jeronimo » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:18 am

I can buy that, but what if you have two adjacent fairways that you shoot north on the first, then south on the other. One hole has a small circle of roped off O.B. in its fairway. That hole calls that out as O.B. on its description, the next hole does NOT. Though you could easily land in that patch of O.B. due to a shanked drive.

How about then Chuck?
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby Frank Delicious » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:42 am

Jeronimo wrote:I can buy that, but what if you have two adjacent fairways that you shoot north on the first, then south on the other. One hole has a small circle of roped off O.B. in its fairway. That hole calls that out as O.B. on its description, the next hole does NOT. Though you could easily land in that patch of O.B. due to a shanked drive.

How about then Chuck?


If the OB isn't listed for that hole then it is not OB. Like Bruce said, the OB for each hole is independent. If the TD or whoever wants to make it OB it needs to be specified somewhere on the sign, score card or announced before the round. OB for every hole needs to specified b/c that can often affect disc and shot selection off the tee and upshots.
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed Jun 17, 2009 7:49 am

In particular, if any specially created and marked area has been declared OB for one hole, the assumption should be that it's OB for all holes unless otherwise indicated by the TD. Think of it like a sand trap in golf, it's still a trap even if you shank into it from another fairway.

Sorry Frank.
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby Frank Delicious » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:01 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:In particular, if any specially created and marked area has been declared OB for one hole, the assumption should be that it's OB for all holes unless otherwise indicated by the TD. Think of it like a sand trap in golf, it's still a trap even if you shank into it from another fairway.

Sorry Frank.


I honestly didn't know that and that means I have played some round incorrectly before.
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby Jeronimo » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:03 am

Frank_Delicious wrote:
I honestly didn't know that and that means I have played some round incorrectly before.



Likewise, that's why I asked.

But Chuck, what if you're wrong...?
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:36 am

There are really two types of OB - boundaries of the park and/or holes like roads, and enclosed polygons/circles of some sort within the course. Park boundaries are going to be consistently OB for all holes. The only thing the TD has to do is identify what marks the OB line (fence, curb, asphalt, etc.). The OB conditions for hole boundaries internal to the park, typically park roads creeks or fence lines, have to be defined specifically for each hole because, in some cases, holes actually throw across them.

For completely enclosed areas within or between fairways like water or cement sections, the TD has to simply say they are OB and landing in them becomes OB by default for all holes unless there are special instructions otherwise. Note that water and cement isn't automatically OB in the rules. It has to be called OB by the TD/signage. This is also the case for specially created OB areas for one hole. The fact the TD made the effort to create an OB hazard would indicate intent that no one throw from that area regardless what hole they were playing. Again, this is the default positon unless the TD says otherwise.

Some of this logic isn't expressly stated in the rulebook so I can understand the confusion. However, I'm just sharing the way the PDGA and officials have seen these situations and ruled on them in the field.
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby Jeronimo » Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:43 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:There are really two types of OB - boundaries of the park and/or holes like roads, and enclosed polygons/circles of some sort within the course. Park boundaries are going to be consistently OB for all holes. The only thing the TD has to do is identify what marks the OB line (fence, curb, asphalt, etc.). The OB conditions for hole boundaries internal to the park, typically park roads creeks or fence lines, have to be defined specifically for each hole because, in some cases, holes actually throw across them.

For completely enclosed areas within or between fairways like water or cement sections, the TD has to simply say they are OB and landing in them becomes OB by default for all holes unless there are special instructions otherwise. Note that water and cement isn't automatically OB in the rules. It has to be called OB by the TD/signage. This is also the case for specially created OB areas for one hole. The fact the TD made the effort to create an OB hazard would indicate intent that no one throw from that area regardless what hole they were playing. Again, this is the default positon unless the TD says otherwise.

Some of this logic isn't expressly stated in the rulebook so I can understand the confusion. However, I'm just sharing the way the PDGA and officials have seen these situations and ruled on them in the field.



THAT was the answer I was looking for. Thank you.
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby black udder » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:37 am

Jeronimo wrote:I can buy that, but what if you have two adjacent fairways that you shoot north on the first, then south on the other. One hole has a small circle of roped off O.B. in its fairway. That hole calls that out as O.B. on its description, the next hole does NOT. Though you could easily land in that patch of O.B. due to a shanked drive.

How about then Chuck?


To me, it would depend on what the OB is. If it's a man-made OB, then it would just be for that hole to present a challenge. If it's actual OB stuff (water, hazard, etc.) then I would imagine it's universally applied. Such as if you have a baseball field that is OB and two holes go up one side and down the other.

If it's roped off stuff like at the USDGC, I'd say it's just for #4, not for #5.
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:55 am

If a player is not supposed to play from a marked enclosed area for one hole, why would you think a player could play from it from another hole? Talking about the default assumption here, not what the TD may or may not have put in writing. We're also not talking street boundaries here that separate fairways but an enclosed OB area. Can you see a player on Hole A going to retrieve his disc from an OB area while a player on Hole B shanked into it and is throwing out of it? :D
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Re: Out of Bounds with respect to?

Postby black udder » Wed Jun 17, 2009 12:53 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:If a player is not supposed to play from a marked enclosed area for one hole, why would you think a player could play from it from another hole? Talking about the default assumption here, not what the TD may or may not have put in writing. We're also not talking street boundaries here that separate fairways but an enclosed OB area. Can you see a player on Hole A going to retrieve his disc from an OB area while a player on Hole B shanked into it and is throwing out of it? :D


I can see it if you're using the OB like a mando marker to make a hole more difficult or to force players to use a certain avenue to the hole. That same idea wouldn't be applicable for another hole, albeit, on the courses I play, that would be a difficult situation to come upon - all our OB is 100% OB wherever you are.
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