frickin awesome

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Re: frickin awesome

Postby krazybronco » Thu Jun 04, 2009 8:06 pm

black udder wrote:
sunspot wrote:It looks like he is throwing a hyzer line or he is hyzer-flipping the disc.


Looked to me like he was hyzer flipping something.


from what i have seen and heard he loves to throw a hyzer flip
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby inthedrift » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:30 am

Who doesn't love to hyzer flip?
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby Bradley Walker » Sat Jun 13, 2009 7:15 am

The real truth is that there is more than one way to effectively throw a disc, and there are a few fundamentals, the biggest fundamental (by far) being plyometric extension of the lower arm (which is the spring effect we call snap) coupled with an effective disc transfer (smash factor).

Snap=85%
everything else=15%.

Feldberg has big snap. You can see it. Even though the movement of his wrist is only a few inches.

I am not sure you can teach snap, but I think you can teach what snap is, and it will develop over time as you muscles and timing improves. It might come over time, might come in an epiphany, or never come at all. Most just "have it".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyometrics

BTW, Blake has always understood this, but I think he could do more to put more emphasis on this ratio and make people understand it.

PS: That is why Blake and I would both comment that if Aaron every developed wrist extension with plyometrics, the disc might explode into fragments as it left his hand... Aaron has more body speed than anyone I have seen, but his wrist is definitely still closed at release. It will also limit his ability to "work" the disc on lines, as a closed wrist release does not put "cut spin" (the type of spin that craves the line) on the disc.

I have been throwing with a young man here in Dallas that has tremendous arm speed and a great arm chop but does not understand wrist release (he just throws and does not understand much). I see similar things... He can only throw nose up hysers, or torque the disc flat (which creates a flutter). A a result he cannot throw mids or putters and he has no anhyser.
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby Aaron_D » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:21 am

This is an excerpt from a convo I had with Avery Jenkins:


ME:
I was wondering about wrist extension. Do you pre-cock your wrist and consciously open it at the hit or do you do something else?

When you grip the disc how tightly do you hold it...it looks like your hand is fairly relaxed but I figured I'd ask.


AVERY:
It is most important to lock your wrist when throwing, very little movement only slight wrist bend back and forth. Never pre-cock the wrist, trying to spin the disc is very different from throwing the disc.

I grip the disc very firm and tight when throwing, you never want the disc to slip out early or any other time. Nice firm grip.


He just doesnt seem to think wrist movement is nearly as crucial as anyone here. Now, its possible he doesnt understand what he himself is doing or the mechanics of a bent arm throw or something like that, but I treat what he says about driving as correct.
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby marmoset » Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:24 am

Avery Jenkins wrote:It is most important to lock your wrist when throwing, very little movement only slight wrist bend back and forth. Never pre-cock the wrist, trying to spin the disc is very different from throwing the disc.

I grip the disc very firm and tight when throwing, you never want the disc to slip out early or any other time. Nice firm grip.


This sounds just like Scott Stokely from his DVDs.
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby Bradley Walker » Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:52 pm

Aaron_D wrote:This is an excerpt from a convo I had with Avery Jenkins:


ME:
I was wondering about wrist extension. Do you pre-cock your wrist and consciously open it at the hit or do you do something else?

When you grip the disc how tightly do you hold it...it looks like your hand is fairly relaxed but I figured I'd ask.


AVERY:
It is most important to lock your wrist when throwing, very little movement only slight wrist bend back and forth. Never pre-cock the wrist, trying to spin the disc is very different from throwing the disc.

I grip the disc very firm and tight when throwing, you never want the disc to slip out early or any other time. Nice firm grip.


He just doesnt seem to think wrist movement is nearly as crucial as anyone here. Now, its possible he doesnt understand what he himself is doing or the mechanics of a bent arm throw or something like that, but I treat what he says about driving as correct.


Getting into a position to open your wrist is the key. This is facilitated by the elbow. The elbow must be forward, and then slow down to allow the lower arm to full extend. Most people get their elbow going too fast, and the lower arm never fully releases.

The elbow must come forward, and then the entire acceleration focus must be transferred to the lower arm, the hand, and ultimately the disc. I know I now throw exclusively focusing on the lower arm. I make no attempt whatsoever to rotate faster. Only making the lower arm go fast creates more distance. The biggest crush I threw today felt slow, and I was perfectly on balance, but the hit was crushed.

Most people just try to make the *elbow* go faster(as well as the shoulder). That is why they *look* like they are trying to throw hard (most have a wild spinning appearance). This also why the elbow angle BREAKS DOWN EARLY (as explained by Beato in his video), as they are trying to go too fast with the elbow into the hit.

Pros, on the other hand, that have MASSIVE lower arm "release", appear to almost go slow. In fact ,they do... the only part going fast is the part that counts... the lower arm, hand, disc. All motion is perfectly timed to create an instantaneous lower arm acceleration. that is also why they have a "wide arm" appearance into the follow through. the shoulder has slowed to allow the arm to release.

PS: I know this is right. I know it in my bones. I taught my long time playing partner today, and I used this same terminology to explain it, and it "clicked" and "got it". His form literally went from "rec" to "high advanced" in one day. Seriously. Accelerating the lower arm properly fixes many other form issues (wrist open/closed, follow through, pivot, etc).
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby Bradley Walker » Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:59 pm

Ask yourself this question:

"Does the disc leave the hand from the pointer finger side or the pinky finger side?"

If you answered pointer finger side, you are releasing the disc from an open wrist.

If you answered pinky finger side, the wrist is still closed and the disc is slipping out the back. In fact, any finger except for the pointer finger is a slip. You can still throw from there, but it will not have all of it. You will also be severely limitedf when it comes to working lines.
Last edited by Bradley Walker on Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby bcsst26 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:51 am

This is it. Thanks Bradley. The other day I had a throw where I would say that I finally smashed it. It seemed as if everything slowed down, and I was only concentrating on the lower arm then the disc itself. I think someone has finally put things into words that would describe that throw of mine. We will see now if I can repeat it. Thanks again.
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby black udder » Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:52 pm

I "had it" for almost a full week, now it's gone.. dammit. Trying to find it again sucks. If you feel like it's clicking physically, throw until it's imprinted, then stop :P
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby Redisculous » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:14 pm

Does this mean that the momentum of the rest of the body serves no purpose during the chop? Does the inertia of the pull carry the disc into the launch position while the shoulders turn & the elbow is stopped, and then its all forearm and wrist? It makes sense to me that the upper arm has to stop to open the elbow, but I don't see how the shoulders can lend any momentum to the rest of the arm while the angle between the upper arm and the shoulders is closing.

I don't doubt the truth of this post, I'm just trying to figure out when & where I should be focusing the momentum from the pivot. I tried starting a post to cover just this and got no replies.
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby garublador » Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:49 am

Bradley Walker wrote:Getting into a position to open your wrist is the key. This is facilitated by the elbow. The elbow must be forward, and then slow down to allow the lower arm to full extend. Most people get their elbow going too fast, and the lower arm never fully releases.

The elbow must come forward, and then the entire acceleration focus must be transferred to the lower arm, the hand, and ultimately the disc. I know I now throw exclusively focusing on the lower arm. I make no attempt whatsoever to rotate faster. Only making the lower arm go fast creates more distance. The biggest crush I threw today felt slow, and I was perfectly on balance, but the hit was crushed.

Most people just try to make the *elbow* go faster(as well as the shoulder). That is why they *look* like they are trying to throw hard (most have a wild spinning appearance). This also why the elbow angle BREAKS DOWN EARLY (as explained by Beato in his video), as they are trying to go too fast with the elbow into the hit.

Pros, on the other hand, that have MASSIVE lower arm "release", appear to almost go slow. In fact ,they do... the only part going fast is the part that counts... the lower arm, hand, disc. All motion is perfectly timed to create an instantaneous lower arm acceleration. that is also why they have a "wide arm" appearance into the follow through. the shoulder has slowed to allow the arm to release.

PS: I know this is right. I know it in my bones. I taught my long time playing partner today, and I used this same terminology to explain it, and it "clicked" and "got it". His form literally went from "rec" to "high advanced" in one day. Seriously. Accelerating the lower arm properly fixes many other form issues (wrist open/closed, follow through, pivot, etc).
It seems like I always see these posts the day after I'm out throwing.

I'm almost there. I've been doing exactly what you're saying. I focus too much on the elbow chop and end up with my elbow too far forward to allow for proper acceleration of my lower arm and hand. I'll get it every once in a while and it explains why that always seems to happen when I'm not trying as hard (I don't "over accelerate" my elbow on those throws). It also might explain why my aim ends up off to the right. I have to rotate farther to get my lower arm extended because my elbow is too far forward.

I believe I have almost the right "feeling" in my hand based on the pointer finger comment, but I'm not getting a whole lot of wrist extension.

Great explanation!
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby Bradley Walker » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:15 am

Redisculous wrote:Does this mean that the momentum of the rest of the body serves no purpose during the chop?


Think of this...

A fishing pole. You can move the handle just a little back and forth, and in the proper time, the tip of the pole will go faster and faster.

The shoulder moves very little in the chop, but it is largely the driver. Tremendous force is required to move the shoulder in the lightning fast move into the hit. When I hit it the best, my *rear* hip and push off leg snaps the shoulder. The distance is short, but the force is high.

PS; Also consider when you move the handle of fishing pole too much, and out of time. The tip slows down. Moving the handle more and more, further and further does nothing to improve the situation.
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby Aaron_D » Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:29 am

Brad, you are awesome. Your detailed explanations are really great. I think you are dead on with the whole too much rotation...if you think about it, it makes perfect sense.
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby Bradley Walker » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:54 pm

Aaron_D wrote:Brad, you are awesome.


No, you are awesome. Frickin awesome. :D
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Re: frickin awesome

Postby mzuleger » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:31 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:
Aaron_D wrote:Brad, you are awesome.


No, you are awesome. Frickin awesome. :D


This thread is awesome.
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