How many penalty strokes

Rules Discussion and General PDGA discussion.

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

How many penalty strokes

Postby djalizwan » Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:57 am

Okay, here is the situation:

A player misses a mando, and gets his/her disc stuck in a tree higher than 2 meters off of the ground.

Is this only one penalty stroke because the mando was missed first, or is it two penalty strokes, and the player would be playing their fourth shot from the drop zone?
djalizwan
Tree Magnet
User avatar
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:26 pm
Location: Happy Valley
Favorite Disc: Wizard

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby Frank Delicious » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:12 am

djalizwan wrote:Okay, here is the situation:

A player misses a mando, and gets his/her disc stuck in a tree higher than 2 meters off of the ground.

Is this only one penalty stroke because the mando was missed first, or is it two penalty strokes, and the player would be playing their fourth shot from the drop zone?



Isn't the 2 meter rule gone?

Also was there a Drop Zone a player had to throw from if he missed the mando? If so, there would only be the penalty for missing the mando.

edit: from the PDGA FAQ

Missed the mandatory, went OB

Question: I was playing a hole with a mandatory tree ahead of the tee to the left, with an OB road running along the hole a bit further left. The mandatory is to the right side of the tree. My drive missed the tree on the left and flew another 250 feet before landing on the OB road. Where do I play my next shot?

This question was posed by Chuck Kennedy, who provided the following illustration:

Response: Applicable Rules: 803.08.Out of Bounds, 803.12 Mandatories

Missed Mando Went OB diagram803.08.E states that missing the mandatory takes precedence: E. A throw that misses a mandatory shall be penalized and the lie marked according to the mandatory rule (803.11). It will not be further penalized for any other reason, such as out-of-bounds or above two meters.
That leads to straightforward rulings in the cases illustrated above:

Shot C, route 2: The disc has not missed the mandatory because it has not crossed the mandatory line on the wrong side, therefore it is played where it was last in-bounds with a one-throw penalty.

Shot B, route 1: This shot has missed the mandatory and then gone OB. According to the rule above, missing the mandatory takes precedence. The next shot is played from the drop zone with a one-throw penalty.

Shot A, route 2: This shot is in-bounds but has missed the mandatory. The next shot is played from the drop zone with a one-throw penalty.

Shot B, route 2: This shot has missed the mandatory and gone OB. Missing the mandatory takes precedence, and the next shot is played from the drop zone with a one-throw penalty.

Conscientious TDs will of course endeavor not to place hazards (such as mandatories and OB) close to each other, and, if it becomes necessary to do so, will ensure in the players' meeting that the players understand how to play the different possible scenarios.

Frank Delicious
The Crime Prince of Clown
User avatar
 
Posts: 12364
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:43 pm
Location: Drowning in a cold river
Favorite Disc: Wraith

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby Dig It » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:17 am

2 meter rule is determined before the round by the TD. They can decide to use it or not for their tourny.
Darmok and Gilad at Tanagra. Shaka, when the walls fell.
Dig It
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1584
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:13 pm
Location: Denver, CO
Favorite Disc: circleStamPooPlate

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby JKP » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:20 am

we use the 2 meter rule only at one course around here.
Omega ss-Kc Aviar-Comet-Roc-Vision-Pd-Firebird-Katana
JKP
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1886
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:47 pm
Location: KY
Favorite Disc: vision

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby djalizwan » Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:25 am

Thanks for the quick responses. 2 meter rule was not in play, but I was wondering how it should be scored (if it were in effect). Frank posted a very helpful response.

It didn't make sense to me that someone could be penalized twice for one throw, but I wasn't in the group this happened to, and I don't know how they scored it. I saw this happen from a couple holes over.
djalizwan
Tree Magnet
User avatar
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:26 pm
Location: Happy Valley
Favorite Disc: Wizard

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby ChUcK » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:15 pm

What about if the disc hits a mando on a cold morning, and splits into identical halves- one half misses the mando, the other half aces?
We are not like those other golfers. We throw our clubs and keep our balls where they belong. -Ol' Bob
ChUcK
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1163
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 10:26 am
Location: Seattle
Favorite Disc: all of 'em.

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby Dig It » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:17 pm

ChUcK wrote:What about if the disc hits a mando on a cold morning, and splits into identical halves- one half misses the mando, the other half aces?


Where did you get the Devilhawk!?
Darmok and Gilad at Tanagra. Shaka, when the walls fell.
Dig It
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1584
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:13 pm
Location: Denver, CO
Favorite Disc: circleStamPooPlate

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby djalizwan » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:24 pm

ChUcK wrote:What about if the disc hits a mando on a cold morning, and splits into identical halves- one half misses the mando, the other half aces?


Was this before or after coming into contact with an unladen swallow?
djalizwan
Tree Magnet
User avatar
 
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:26 pm
Location: Happy Valley
Favorite Disc: Wizard

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:49 pm

Only one penalty can be assessed when there are multiple possible. The priority order is:
Missing the mando
OB
2 meter (if in effect)
Lost

Unplayable penalty can only be called after any of the penalties above are assessed if that's the situation.

Here's a trick set of questions:
1. Player's throw crosses the mando line on the good side, hits a tree and rolls back thru the mando and ends up on the bad side of the mando line.
2. Player's throw crosses the bad side of the mando line, hits a tree and rolls back over the line and around the mando, briefly crosses the good side of the mando line but rolls back just short of the good side of the mando.

What's the ruling in each situation?
Chuck Kennedy
1000 Rated Poster
 
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Twin Cities

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby mark12b » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:43 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Here's a trick set of questions:
1. Player's throw crosses the mando line on the good side, hits a tree and rolls back thru the mando and ends up on the bad side of the mando line.
2. Player's throw crosses the bad side of the mando line, hits a tree and rolls back over the line and around the mando, briefly crosses the good side of the mando line but rolls back just short of the good side of the mando.

What's the ruling in each situation?


hm, i'd think:

#1: play it where it lies; mando has already been made

#2: same thing, assuming the rolling disc "unwound" itself in the correct direction
mark12b
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby Dogma » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:47 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Here's a trick set of questions:
1. Player's throw crosses the mando line on the good side, hits a tree and rolls back thru the mando and ends up on the bad side of the mando line.
2. Player's throw crosses the bad side of the mando line, hits a tree and rolls back over the line and around the mando, briefly crosses the good side of the mando line but rolls back just short of the good side of the mando.

What's the ruling in each situation?

I would say both are successfully completed mandos based on: 803.12 A. Once the disc has completely passed the mandatory line on the correct side (even if it subsequently re-crosses the line), the mandatory is to be ignored for the remainder of play on that hole.
Dogma
2009 DGR Donator
User avatar
 
Posts: 1250
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:27 pm

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:54 pm

That's correct. Passing the mando on the good side is one of the few rulings where the players and/or spotter need to watch the route of the disc closely while it's still moving. For most other potential penalty situations, including missing the mando, where the disc ends up is when the ruling is made.
Chuck Kennedy
1000 Rated Poster
 
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Twin Cities

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby tim » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:23 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Only one penalty can be assessed when there are multiple possible. The priority order is:
Missing the mando
OB
2 meter (if in effect)
Lost

Unplayable penalty can only be called after any of the penalties above are assessed if that's the situation.

Here's a trick set of questions:
1. Player's throw crosses the mando line on the good side, hits a tree and rolls back thru the mando and ends up on the bad side of the mando line.
2. Player's throw crosses the bad side of the mando line, hits a tree and rolls back over the line and around the mando, briefly crosses the good side of the mando line but rolls back just short of the good side of the mando.

What's the ruling in each situation?


I saw this happen a few weeks ago. The mando for a local hole is on the outside tree of a tight cluster of 5-6 trees. Disc passes the mando by an inch or two, hits the next tree in the grouping, kicks to the bad-side of the mando, rolls around and makes a full circle around the mando tree. The disc was good, but the throw was really amusing.
Flick long and prosper.
VP/Wizard | Roc/Buzz | Firebird | Teebird | Destroyer
Vibram Putter tester -- feel free to ask me any questions.
tim
2009 DGR Donator
 
Posts: 342
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:19 pm
Location: NoVA

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby chiggins » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:37 pm

tim wrote:I saw this happen a few weeks ago. The mando for a local hole is on the outside tree of a tight cluster of 5-6 trees. Disc passes the mando by an inch or two, hits the next tree in the grouping, kicks to the bad-side of the mando, rolls around and makes a full circle around the mando tree. The disc was good, but the throw was really amusing.


So now I'm wondering... okay, scenario:

- Mando tree is on the right, indicator pointing to the left.
- Shot goes right of the mando, but hits a rock and starts rolling.

Now we've already established a disc that came around the tree clockwise, and then crossed the good line from the front, is good no matter what else happens. But if it rolls around the tree counter-clockwise, crossing the good line from behind, I imagine it's still a miss correct?

And by old rules (no drop, no re-tee, gotta come back around), would the player then have to throw that disc back around the tree entirely to cross the line on the good side?

Now I know in Italy, the guy on the top bunk has to make the guy on the bottom bunk's bed. It's regulations. If we were in Germany...
chiggins
2009 DGR Donator
User avatar
 
Posts: 751
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:51 am

Re: How many penalty strokes

Postby BeSquared » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:38 am

Only one penalty can be assessed when there are multiple possible. The priority order is:
Missing the mando
OB
2 meter (if in effect)
Lost

So there I was, I missed the mando, hit a tree bounced high into another tree that was out of bounds. IN ADDITION the disc was higher than 2 meters up and I couldn't find it. Reteeing for 6... :D
Meh...
BeSquared
Tree Magnet
User avatar
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:14 am
Location: In a cave
Favorite Disc: Rawww!

Next

Return to Rules Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests