Falling putt or not?

[ChUcK]

We have had a lot of discussion on my local forum about this video, and one of Barsby's putts. The putt in question occurs at about the 6:50-7:00 mark. If anyone knows how to take that video and edit it down to just the clip I'm talking about, then please do, although the video is pretty damn good, and worth your while to watch.

So, is it a falling putt or not?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQtiWo1Ju2Q

[AciDBatH666]

my opinion, he looks like he's outside of the circle. I'd say it looks good. I'm assuming (because I do this) Before I jump putt, i ask the others in my group "This looks like 30 to you?"
And then I go for it. I don't go for it if it's questionable. Unless Im like, 60 out and it's obvious. My guess is he prolly got an ok from someone else in the group, if he's worried about it.

[MIdiscgolfer]

I'm looking at the putt where he picks up the mini and then steps forward not the jump putt. And I would have to say that he did not demonstrate balance I don't think he could have stopped his forward momentum and not stepped in front of the marker. Although it was so close I doubt I would have called him on it. It's one thing to see it on video and be watching for the falling putt it's another when it's in person and you're watching the putt go in.

[Shaolintrained]

100% foot fault & he knew it, too!

[curt]

Looking at the putt w/ the picked up mini.

I would disagree. I think that there is a point (right around 6:56) where he clearly (to me, probably not to most) stops his momentum and shifts to moving downward to pick up the mini, which would make it not a falling putt.

I regularly pick up my mini as part of the putt during casual rounds, and find that it would be very difficult to actually pull off this move without having control of your body first.

On the other hand, I think it is very bad practice in tournaments b/c it opens yourself up to being called. It definitely is not the best way to demonstrate balance.

[AciDBatH666]

Oh my bad. I was looking at the 6:50 shot. THat looked ok. The one after where he picked up his mini... That is a tough call.
Either way, if someone wanted to call it, the first is a warning... So technically if it was called out to him he wouldn't be penalized if it was the first one.

But as to whether or not it's falling... That is really tricky.

[curt]

So technically if it was called out to him he wouldn't be penalized

He would have to re-putt. So there is at least a minimal penalty (along with the penalty of the next one counting). I also imagine it could work the mental game.

[AciDBatH666]

Wrong. They had 3 seconds to call him out on an infringement, and the first one was a warning and not a stroke. All infringements after that = 1 stroke.

This establishes a falling putt as a "Stance violation"

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off
C. Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc
to the base of the hole, is considered a putt. A follow-through after a putt that causes the
thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the
marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation . The player must demonstrate full
control of balance before advancing toward the hole.

This explains that a "Stance violation" must be called out 3 seconds after it happens, and it must be confirmed by someone else. They are issued a warning first.

F. A stance violation must be clearly called within three seconds after the infraction to be
valid. The call may be made by any member of the group or an official. When the call is made by
a member of the group, it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. A
player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round.
Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.

I thought that was the warning for a falling putt
On the 2nd infraction, they are forced to re-putt.

G. Any throw that involves a validly called and seconded stance violation may not be used by the thrower. Re-throws must be taken from the original lie, prior to subsequent play by others in the group.

H. The player may not retrieve the originally thrown disc prior to the re-throw, except in the
case of a putt from within 10 meters. Where a disc is retrieved in violation of this rule, a
one throw penalty shall be imposed without a warning.

[domromer]

It'd close but I don't think it was a falling putt. Where is that course? It looks killer.

[nohr]

Definitely inside 30 feet. I counted 5 steps and he was almost to his disc. Give him another 2 or 3 steps with a 3 foot stride that puts him at 24-27 feet out.

Here's my question to establish balance do you need to put your nonplant foot down before picking your mini up. One could argue that you are maintaining harder balance by having that foot up in the air.

[curt]

AcidBath,

I don't see how the rule you quoted deals with the issue of re-throwing or not. It simply says the for the first offense the player will receive a warning and a second time will receive a penalty. To me, there is not an implication that the existence of a warning would change the need for a re-throw.

That being said, I could definitely see the argument that from the rules, a stance violation does not require a re-throw, since the rule states the penalty is one-stroke. However, I do believe that the common interpretation is that since the throw is illegal, it should not be used for play.

[mark12b]

It'd close but I don't think it was a falling putt. Where is that course? It looks killer.

it was a couple of temp courses set up at the ski hill in leavenworth, wa. *super* fun weekend, and word is that there's chance something more permanent might go in there.

i'm on the side of those who say it's hard to pick up your mini and stand back up if you were off-balance to begin with. i don't know that he actually *demonstrated* balance, but it was implied. that said, he probably could have been called on it and the call might have been seconded.

[mark12b]

Here's my question to establish balance do you need to put your nonplant foot down before picking your mini up.

i've heard of people thinking that but there's nothing in the rules about it. of course one-legged golfers have no choice in the matter.

[AciDBatH666]

AcidBath,

I don't see how the rule you quoted deals with the issue of re-throwing or not. It simply says the for the first offense the player will receive a warning and a second time will receive a penalty. To me, there is not an implication that the existence of a warning would change the need for a re-throw.

That being said, I could definitely see the argument that from the rules, a stance violation does not require a re-throw, since the rule states the penalty is one-stroke. However, I do believe that the common interpretation is that since the throw is illegal, it should not be used for play.

You stated that he would have to re-throw. I said he didn't have to because if it was his first violation (assuming it was his first violation of the round), he'd get a warning first and the putt counts. All violations after that is when you stroke him

[curt]

All violations after that is when you stroke him

When one gets stroked for a stance violation, do they have to re-putt?