Falling putt or not?

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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby curt » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:19 pm

Keokuk Discer's (and everyone else's on this thread) interpretation of the rule is only a contradiction if you assume that 803.04 F & G are dependent on each other. They are not. F goes to the giving of penalty strokes, while G references is the validity of a throw which has a stance violation called. They operate individually of each other.

If all the condition of 803.04 A (and B) are fulfilled, then the stance is valid, otherwise there is a stance violation. Both sections of the rules have timing elements that describe when the rules apply. F indicates that a penalty throw is only assessed after a warning has been given. G on the other hand says that any thrown with a called stance violation must be re-thrown.

The word subsequent is not used anywhere in the section that discusses re-throwing after a validly called stance violation. Any is the word used in that section. I will go ahead and assume you know what that word means.
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby some call me...tim? » Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:52 am

Acid, not trying to attack you or anything, but just want to make sure you understand the rulings properly. I've seen misinterpretations of the rules before and if one person is convinced he knows the ruling, others in turn will be convinced and think that's the proper rule and then before you know it, you end up having an argument with people in a tournament, and that just sucks.

It seems to me that you're equating a re-throw as a penalty. It's not. Only the addition of the stroke is a penalty. So basically, any foot fault that's called and seconded will have a re-throw. For each foot fault after your first, you're going to have to re-throw, AND take a penalty stroke.

Re-throws aren't necessarily a bad thing. If you managed to sink a falling putt inside the circle and then had to re-putt it, then yeah, you might miss and that could suck. Sometimes though, a re-throw can actually be good. In fact, in most cases, I'd wager that a re-throw is actually a bonus in that you can try to correct mistakes made in the previous throw (remember that foot faults don't just apply to putts.)

A real life example that I witnessed at a tourney a couple years ago: A card was teeing off on a hole near our card. It was a card of Int. players and a Junior, the Junior was visibly a little nervous from having to play in a tournament setting with a bunch of older guys he didn't know. He teed off, his foot slipped off the pad and his drive shanked into nasty, thick schule. One of the guys on the card called the foot fault on him, it was seconded, and the kid re-teed. The second time he'd shaken off the jitters, took his time, and threw a nice straight shot down the middle of the fairway, easily saving a couple strokes from if he had to throw from his first drive with no penalty incurred.
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby AciDBatH666 » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:59 am

No i completely understand that the rethrow equates to a stroke. You rethrow it, AND take a stroke.
I said you don't get penalized for the first throw. You DON'T have to rethrow it. But every throw AFTER is a penalty and is a rethrow and stroke.

I figured I wrote it pretty clear. But evidently I'm having trouble expressing it.

My take on it.
First time you're called out on it, thats it, you're called out. No rethrow, no stroke. WARNING
2nd time and every time after you get called out on it, rethrow, PLUS 1 stroke.
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby some call me...tim? » Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:48 am

AciDBatH666 wrote:No i completely understand that the rethrow equates to a stroke. You rethrow it, AND take a stroke.


That right there is the misunderstanding. The re-throw does not equate to a stroke. It can seem like that since every re-throw except one has a penalty stroke associated with it, but as curt pointed out and I tried to emphasize with the bold text in my original quote, the key word in section G is the "Any."

I know you're probably smacking your forehead at all of us that you think don't "get it", but if you don't believe us, send an email to the PDGA rules committee. They'll tell you exactly what we've been trying to say this whole time.
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby AciDBatH666 » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:20 pm

I hate disc golf...
And English. Lol
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby ChUcK » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:42 pm

(first stance violation) = rethrow + warning

(second stance violation) = rethrow + penalty

(third stance violation) = rethrow + penalty

(fourth stance violation) = probably should stop playing and go get some field practice, because that is just ridiculous. Hey Chuck Kennedy, what's the most stance violations you've ever heard of for a single player in a single round?
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby XvileX » Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:46 pm

So, just to make sure I understand this - The rethrow on the first time being called basically negates the real first throw.

I tee and foot fault - I get called and seconded on it.

I re-tee. This still counts as my first throw.

Correct?
Last edited by XvileX on Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby curt » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:02 pm

yes, you are correct.


Technically, this is correct for any stance violation. The first throw, the one with the violation, doesn't count. The re-throw counts. After a warning you also add a penalty throw.
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby Keokuk Discer » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:42 pm

XvileX wrote:So, just to make sure I understand this - The rethrow on the first time being called basically negates the real first throw.

I tee and foot fault - I get called and seconded on it.

I re-tee. This still counts as my first throw.

Correct?


Exactly. Like what was said earlier, this re-throw may not be a bad thing if your first throw was shanked so badly it might otherwise cost you several strokes.
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby Fritz » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:02 am

That is definitely inside the circle and a Falling Putt. His balance was way off, and he used the guise of getting his mini to cover it.

I've actually been called on this. I used to putt and as part of the motion (I know it's in I don't need to watch it) I just automatically bend/swoop down and grab my mini and walk to the basket. I had another Open Player call me on it, and get the second.
So now, I putt, put my back foot down and then grab my mini and walk forward.
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby Steady 26542 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:40 am

Keokuk Discer wrote:
XvileX wrote:So, just to make sure I understand this - The rethrow on the first time being called basically negates the real first throw.

I tee and foot fault - I get called and seconded on it.

I re-tee. This still counts as my first throw.

Correct?


Exactly. Like what was said earlier, this re-throw may not be a bad thing if your first throw was shanked so badly it might otherwise cost you several strokes.

If he shanked it I wouldn't call him on it. :lol:
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby Fritz » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:06 pm

Steady 26542 wrote:
Keokuk Discer wrote:
XvileX wrote:So, just to make sure I understand this - The rethrow on the first time being called basically negates the real first throw.

I tee and foot fault - I get called and seconded on it.

I re-tee. This still counts as my first throw.

Correct?


Exactly. Like what was said earlier, this re-throw may not be a bad thing if your first throw was shanked so badly it might otherwise cost you several strokes.

If he shanked it I wouldn't call him on it. :lol:


We had a guy in my group at my tournament, purposely fall forward when he missed his putt, and he even asked for a 2nd / call on a falling putt. No one called it. :lol:
He was pissed. Then one guy said, you had perfect balance till you saw it was going to miss then you allowed yourself to fall forward. Not gonna help you out man, I'm playing for $$ too.
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby domromer » Thu Jul 09, 2009 12:07 pm

Wow. That's underhanded.
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby Fritz » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:33 pm

domromer wrote:Wow. That's underhanded.


If someone woulda called him on it, I woulda watched his feet like a hawk the rest of the round.


FYI, to go along with the thread, you only get one warning per round, so every stance violation after that is a stroke and a rethrow.
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Re: Falling putt or not?

Postby mark12b » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:56 pm

i've heard guys talk about purposely calling themselves when they miss a putt or shank a drive, hoping for a 2nd from someone else in the group... never actually seen it though.
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