Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

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Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:10 am

Last edited by Bradley Walker on Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby bcsst26 » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:23 am

Thanks for a great image. Hopefully it leads to some great discussions. Anyways care to expand on this a little?

"Thrower is resisting wrist bending"

Would this be the wrist bending more toward the forearm or would it be the wrist bending toward the open position??
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Timko » Thu Jul 09, 2009 10:53 am

Bradley, are the shoulders of your drawing intentionally not faced up with the target? From the looks of that diagram, you're throwing a hyzer or hyzer flip with shoulder alignment like that.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:15 am

Nomenclature:

Inward pull- this is the traditional "pull line" that is so often emphasized in classic disc throwing treaching. This pull line takes place at the very beginning of the throw. The inward pull is up to the point of the midline of the thrower. The inward pull happens *behind* the thrower.

Parallel pull line-
this refers to the fact that the disc thrower is not pulling the disc down the inward pull line through the CG of the disc. In fact, the disc is held on the rim of the disc and the CG of the disc is through the center of the disc. This means the disc is actually being pulled from a point away from the weight of the disc. This will set up the tremendous moment and torque that will be imparted later.

Loft line-
this is the part of the disc path that happens in front of the midline of the body. In other words, the part of the throw that happens between the throwers chest center and the target. The loft line is the preparation for the travel through the apex. In other words, the thrower is lofting the disc into the apex to set up the travel around the nose.

Apex- this is the point where the parallel pull line and the true linear CG path of the disc cross. It is typically at a point about about a foot closer to the target than the lead mid line of the thrower's body and slightly to the left of the mid line of the body (for a right handed thrower). This is also the point where the arm can no longer travel forward and must instead start arc rearward.

Throwing around the nose- this is the action that must occur to set up the conditions for a powerful snap. Throwing around the nose refers to the path that hand must take get in front of the disc CG to use the disc radius "R" to propel the disc forward. The need for throwing around the nose results from the fact that the disc is actually being used like a weight on the end of a stick (say, like a claw hammer). Throwing around the nose creates the conditions for a pure throw with no wobble, a powerful disc pivot and disc ejection (as opposed to a slip), and the much sought after wrist "bounce". Think of a top with the string wrapped around it. With the string, a little forward momentum, and a quck snap away from the top, tremendous energy can be imparted. The weight and momentum of the disc creates a powerful bowing in the wrist no matter how much the thrower resists.

Outward pull- this is the most critical and strongest pull in the throw. It occurs from the point where the hand is roughly 11 oclock to 3oclock on the disc clock and the disc is roughly passing through the apex to the disc ejection. In this outward pull, the arm and hand is nearly *retracting* away from the target after throwing 12 oclock on the disc clock. The arm is retracting due to the fact that the length of the arm has been fully played out that shoulders continue to rotate.

"R"-the distance from the rim to the center of the disc.

Disc pivot- this is the result of the hand, arm, and elbow arcing around the nose of the disc and the hand and disc reaching the apex. At the point where the hand passes, the 12 oclock position at the nose of the disc, the hand actually begins to retract in an arc around to 3 oclock due to the fact the length of the arm has completely extended and the shoulder continues to close.

Snap- the violent tendon bounce as the bowed wrist (caused solely by the weight of the disc, the path of the hand, and arm reaching apex) that occurs just immediately before the disc is ejected from the hand. The greater the thrower resists the bending of the wrist and better attains the correct positions, the bigger the snap.

Smash- the geometric "jump" of the disc forward of the hand that can be attained by using "R" and the arcing of the hand around the nose of the disc and then retracting the arc around to 3 oclock. The better the angle of the arc is is retained around the disc, the stronger the grip, and the later the disc is released the larger the jump forward.

The disc clock-
CG- the center of the disc
9 oclock- this is the position of the hand during the inward pull
12 oclock- this is the point that points directly at the target. That hand reaches this position immediately before the apex
3 clock- the absolute last possible moment the hand could contact the disc after the snap and disc ejection.

Pure torque- this is the condition that results from the hand perfectly tracking around the nose of the disc, within the plane of the disc creating a torque using the lever arm "R". Think of a top with the string wrapped around it preparing for a spin. If the string is perfectly wrapped before the throw, and the throw of the top in plane with the wrap of the string, it does not matter how hard the top is thrown, it will not wobble.

Of axis torque- this is the condition that results from the hand not perfectly tracking around the nose within the plane of the disc into the extremely powerful snap. Think of the top if you wrapped the string askew at some odd angle. The harder the string is pulled the more wobble will be induced.

Disc spin- spin on the disc is a by product of the fact that the thrower's hand is on the rim of the disc and is arching around the CG. The CG is at the center of the disc separated by "R". Spin is by product of throwing around the nose of the disc through the apex.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby mark12b » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:46 pm

thanks for the sketch and the writeup, bradley. which parts of this are different than what you've been saying before now?
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:35 pm

I'd venture a couple things.

1) While you do need to pull in close to the chest, it doesn't have to be as far as the bottom left picture. You can do that, just don't have to. The slo-mo video of Feldberg shows that. He's in close at the back, but not all the way across.

2) At the 2nd bottom picture, I believe this is about where the elbow has to stop and the "chop" occurs. That forearm swing and tendon bounce.

3) Between the 2nd bottom picture and the 3rd is when you're chest would come around to just about face up. It's why timing is such a difficult thing. You have to stop the elbow to start the forearm swing and then rotate your shoulders so you don't lock your elbow. It's a split second action and if you do it perfectly, you get your best shot, if you don't, you get a variety of results.

Not disagreeing with anything Brad has, just some additional observations based off recently discoveries. I'm finding that some of the things I'd focused on weren't as important as I originally thought (like pulling in a straight line tightly across your chest). The important things were coming into the chest somewhere, keeping a straight line and the making sure that your wrist is loose enough to bend to get tendon bounce and you stop the elbow movement to force the elbow chop. There is quite a bit of flexibility of body placement in there and they can all yield good throws.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:32 am

Furthur wrote:Bradley, are the shoulders of your drawing intentionally not faced up with the target? From the looks of that diagram, you're throwing a hyzer or hyzer flip with shoulder alignment like that.


I am not an artist at all. The drawings are meant to show the force lines around the disc, the apex, etc
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Redisculous » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:36 am

Thanks for putting this together, you've obviously put a lot of thought into it.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:40 am

This is not write up, it is just the nomenclature that will be used for the write up.

As far as if there is anything new, I was never completely sure of the *exact* nature of the snap and how to produce it. I was all round it. I believe I touched on all the elements. I another words I was always *close* but *no one* has ever stated emphatically how to set up the elements to create a powerful snap, and *WHY* it is powerful.

Indeed, I have identified all the elements at one time or another: throwing around the disc, change of direction, disc pivot, smash factor, etc. I was simply unable to put them together in an absolute recipe. Now, I believe I have that recipe.

Keep in mind, you can throw without a good snap. However, fpcusing on the strongest snap possible is by far the easiest (and most accurate) way to throw.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:44 am

BTW, I am offering to teach this method to anyone who can make to my house.

http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13284&start=15&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Dogma » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:51 am

Thanks for putting the time into this. I find it very helpful. Can you explain "thrower is resisting wrist bending"? Are they resisting opening, or resisting closing? And how do you resist without actually bending the opposite direction?

Also, what is the "steely stop"? Is it stopping your wrist from opening beyond the line of your forearm, and if so what effect is it having?

Thanks.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby DaPats » Fri Jul 10, 2009 6:58 am

I think he is talking about gripping the disc very hard and letting the disc rip out of your hand. In the reach back also you have a tight grip instead of loose. The harder the grip the bigger smash factor you get. There is a big difference in velocity when you just snap a destroyer or wraith compared to smashing it. Am i close Bradley?
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby RoomTenONine » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:43 am

Dogma wrote:Thanks for putting the time into this. I find it very helpful. Can you explain "thrower is resisting wrist bending"? Are they resisting opening, or resisting closing? And how do you resist without actually bending the opposite direction?

Also, what is the "steely stop"? Is it stopping your wrist from opening beyond the line of your forearm, and if so what effect is it having?

Thanks.


I have questions about this too because it seems opposite of the "wrist extension" explanations given by Blake and Dan. In all honesty, Bradley's explanation make much more sense to me from a pure physics and vectors standpoint (not that the other guys are wrong, just explained it in a way that seemed backwards to me).
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:28 am

You can extend your wrist dynamically past flat. This also implies a greater rotation around the disc for an even greater smash.

In reality there is nothing I am saying that in conflict with previous discussions of wrist extension.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:43 am

DaPats wrote:I think he is talking about gripping the disc very hard and letting the disc rip out of your hand. In the reach back also you have a tight grip instead of loose. The harder the grip the bigger smash factor you get. There is a big difference in velocity when you just snap a destroyer or wraith compared to smashing it. Am i close Bradley?


I don't believe that you want a strong grip at all until the actual rip. I don't know how conscious you can be of that moment, either.

The strong grip at the rip is more of you exercising what grip power you have at that moment, subconciously. If you improve your overall grip strength, you improve that moment and improve your distance. You don't want to grip tightly anywhere before that or you reduce your ability to flex and reduce your tendon bounce.

I agree that stronger grip is better, but I don't believe consciously gripping more helps. What happens is at the rip, you grip reflexively. The more grip strength you have, the more is applied. The more that's applied, the later the disc will come out. The less, the sooner the disc comes out. It's not as if it's not something you adjust to or can't aim because of more or less, just that you would see a bump if you increased your grip strength and harnessed it at the rip point.
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