Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:53 am

DaPats wrote:I think he is talking about gripping the disc very hard and letting the disc rip out of your hand. In the reach back also you have a tight grip instead of loose. The harder the grip the bigger smash factor you get. There is a big difference in velocity when you just snap a destroyer or wraith compared to smashing it. Am i close Bradley?


The hand must radius around the nose of the disc to set up the pivot and smash.

The longer the grip can be maintained around the nose into the apex the stronger the snap and the more leverage of the smash (which creates a jump forward). So, at the critical time the stronger the grip the *better* and more radically the angles that bend the wrist back can be maintained. If the grip is weak, the disc will simply pop out of the hand early.

However, if the throw around the nose of the disc is set up correctly, the disc path will still be relatively the same even with an early rip, it will just not be snapped as hard. this due to the fact that the CG of the disc is still on a linear path. The path of the hand is around the circumference of the disc. Even if this is altered slightly, it does not change the linear path of the disc, only the potential force.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby bcsst26 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:44 am

This is making sense and a great drawing. Here is my question. The other day I would say that I could feel the tendon bounce in wrist/hand. I got great distance out of it. I haven't been able to repeat the feeling. Last night I was getting the same distance with the same effort but I couldn't feel the tendon bounce. I wasn't sure why. Thinking about it night and day(literally) the only conclusion I could come to is that once the disc is past my right pec I am closing my wrist more than the 9 oclock (maybe more to 7 oclock) going in to the apex. I think the day that I was feeling it I kept it at 9 oclock. So is closing more than 9 bad? I would say that it will take longer to get your hand to 12 so probably getting some early releases. Also I guess if you close more past 9 then you are tensing up your wrist to much?? Thoughts..comments..right track..wrong track..??
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:48 am

Bradley Walker wrote:However, if the throw around the nose of the disc is set up correctly, the disc path will still be relatively the same even with an early rip, it will just not be snapped as hard. this due to the fact that the CG of the disc is still on a linear path. The path of the hand is around the circumference of the disc. Even if this is altered slightly, it does not change the linear path of the disc, only the potential force.


Curious - from what Blake told me, my interpretation was that this strong grip is really at the last moment of the rip, so it's a late, late tight grip. The difference between the best grip and late rip vs an early release is a really small span of distance, but the power difference is (from my understanding) considerable.

Are you saying the same thing or talking about a tight grip much earlier in the throw?
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Fri Jul 10, 2009 10:49 am

I really do wish I could get out there - you and I do seem to enjoy talking about this ad nauseum. It's a shame because I work for EDS and we're not only HQ'd out there but are doing a ton of work in the Richardson, Plano area right now.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:33 am

bcsst26 wrote:This is making sense and a great drawing. Here is my question. The other day I would say that I could feel the tendon bounce in wrist/hand. I got great distance out of it. I haven't been able to repeat the feeling. Last night I was getting the same distance with the same effort but I couldn't feel the tendon bounce. I wasn't sure why. Thinking about it night and day(literally) the only conclusion I could come to is that once the disc is past my right pec I am closing my wrist more than the 9 oclock (maybe more to 7 oclock) going in to the apex. I think the day that I was feeling it I kept it at 9 oclock. So is closing more than 9 bad? I would say that it will take longer to get your hand to 12 so probably getting some early releases. Also I guess if you close more past 9 then you are tensing up your wrist to much?? Thoughts..comments..right track..wrong track..??


*You* do not close your wrist. the weight of the disc. your hand on the rim, and the arcing around the disc through the apex closes the wrist. You should be trying to hold your wrist straight.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby bcsst26 » Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:02 pm

Thats probably it. Last night I know that I was closing my wrist on my own. No wonder I wasn't feeling the bounce. I will work on keeping my wrist neutral. I know for sure though if I don't watch my wrist then it will end up at 12 oclock before I know it. I am not sure where I picked this habit up but it is there. Maybe from throwing lids when I was younger?? I would just flick my wrist to get it to go. I never got into throwing then like now. Hopefully I can make it out tonight to try it out. Who knew that keeping my wrist neutral at 9 oclock would be so difficult but this is something that I can mess up thats for sure.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby RustyP » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:31 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:
bcsst26 wrote:This is making sense and a great drawing. Here is my question. The other day I would say that I could feel the tendon bounce in wrist/hand. I got great distance out of it. I haven't been able to repeat the feeling. Last night I was getting the same distance with the same effort but I couldn't feel the tendon bounce. I wasn't sure why. Thinking about it night and day(literally) the only conclusion I could come to is that once the disc is past my right pec I am closing my wrist more than the 9 oclock (maybe more to 7 oclock) going in to the apex. I think the day that I was feeling it I kept it at 9 oclock. So is closing more than 9 bad? I would say that it will take longer to get your hand to 12 so probably getting some early releases. Also I guess if you close more past 9 then you are tensing up your wrist to much?? Thoughts..comments..right track..wrong track..??


*You* do not close your wrist. the weight of the disc. your hand on the rim, and the arcing around the disc through the apex closes the wrist. You should be trying to hold your wrist straight.


I noticed yesterday when I was playing that on my longest drives, or at least the ones that appeared to take off with the most speed, my wrist felt like it was bent ever so slightly past the straight position (a few degrees closer to being "open") as I pulled through in front of my chest. Do you think this would allow for a slightly more dramatic closing then re-opening of the wrist during extension?

**I could have misinterpreted the position of my wrist, of course. It felt like it was slightly open, but it may have actually been straight, and just felt otherwise.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Fri Jul 10, 2009 3:19 pm

I think I close my wrist a little to start. It helps me get "around" the disc to set up for the snap.

I just got back from the field. I am pretty happy kids!!!

The interesting thing? I amke no attempt whatsoever to "throw" the disc forward, except to "loft" it into the apex.

All of the forward speed is coming from the arc around the nose of the disc and the pull out. the disc springs forward, and I am basically pulling to the rear.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby RoomTenONine » Fri Jul 10, 2009 4:03 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:You can extend your wrist dynamically past flat. This also implies a greater rotation around the disc for an even greater smash.

In reality there is nothing I am saying that in conflict with previous discussions of wrist extension.


Like I said, I don't think anyone was "wrong" just that it is finally being explained to a point where it REALLY makes sense to me (I was complimenting you BTW). You've explained how the hand needs to needs to snap back (close the palm). In the MB vid he just shows how you need to extend the wrist back/palm out like a Jedi force push, but never a mention of countering that motion to increase spin.

All together it makes perfect sense though. Extend the wrist as much as possible, but be sure to counter that motion so the hand imparts extra spin on the disc. The greater the extension, the more forceful you can spin teh disc assuming you are applying a force opposite the extension.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Aaron_D » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:24 am

How has this new understanding affected your throw Brad? Was/is it easy to incorporate into your throw? Have you increased you overall max D, or D consistency? Can we see some older vids of you along side some new videos that incorporate this technique?
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:26 pm

Aaron_D wrote:How has this new understanding affected your throw Brad? Was/is it easy to incorporate into your throw? Have you increased you overall max D, or D consistency? Can we see some older vids of you along side some new videos that incorporate this technique?


I think I did some of it, I just never knew what I was doing. To teach something, you have to understand it completely (at least I do).

I am throwing must stronger now than I was even a week ago.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby masterbeato » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:00 pm

i lost D' in my throw completely. i lost that air displacement and i am unable to get it back so far. even so it was still sporatic some days i would have it and some days i wouldnt. but when this year came along, it just completely disappeared. i had a few throws where i had it but thats it.

do you have air displacement in your throws when you throw it hard Brad? do you know how to fix this issue?

maybe MDR can chime in as well.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Blink » Sat Jul 11, 2009 1:39 pm

I think I get that air displacement thing, if that's what it is when you can hear the air hitting the disc right after you release. Namely throwing my slower discs like rocs and rhynos. I thought it was from speed rather than snap, but Brad says I'm mostly snap. Not sure how you could have lost it, you must have been changing up something fundamental.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby masterbeato » Sat Jul 11, 2009 2:54 pm

i was learning how to throw short lol

touch, and i completely lost it.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:40 pm

I never siad I re-invented snap. I just think I have dissected what is happening.

Beato, I have good days and bad days. Some days, my snap is awesome. Others days, not so much...

Blake said this is normal. I never said I was a natural thrower with perfect technique... I just have a knack for noticing details. I need to teach some people, to better understand how to relay the method.
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