Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:41 pm

masterbeato wrote:do you have air displacement in your throws when you throw it hard Brad?


With Rocs, I would say yes, especially on good days. Not so much drivers.

I threw a Roc yesterday in the field that went as far as my Destroyer. That was crazy.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby bcsst26 » Sat Jul 11, 2009 5:46 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:I never siad I re-invented snap. I just think I have dissected what is happening.

Beato, I have good days and bad days. Some days, my snap is awesome. Others days, not so much...

Blake said this is normal. I never said I was a natural thrower with perfect technique... I just have a knack for noticing details. I need to teach some people, to better understand how to relay the method.


And when you teach some people in person you ever think of taking someone under your wing who can't travel outside of the pittsburgh region?? :wink:
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Man_Utenbart » Sat Jul 11, 2009 6:57 pm

Hi!

When in the pull should you start feeling the weight of the disc?
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:12 pm

I'd say yes. It's not a long thing, but if you feel it then, to me, it means that your arm is relaxed and you're not "throwing" as much as using your body/form as a mechanical devices to launch the disc.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Man_Utenbart » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:16 pm

Sorry, I meant where in the pull should you feel the weight of the disc :)
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby gretagun » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:19 pm

black udder wrote: You don't want to grip tightly anywhere before that or you reduce your ability to flex and reduce your tendon bounce


For the longest time I have tried to stay loose in my grip and wrist, and this was keeping me right around the 350 ft plateau. Some days I'd get a little further, and some days I wouldn't, but I couldn't get past this. I read something in the new Disc Golfer magazine grip articles that changed my approach to this. Carlton Howard wrote "Do not try to have an incredible "wrist snapping motion" at/near the point of release." This struck me as odd, and contradicted everything I "thought" I had learned or understood about snap. I was curious, so I started throwing with a tighter wrist, and added the easiest distance yet to my throws. When I refer to tighter, I don't mean clenching down with all my strength, but i would not describe my wrist or grip as loose anymore.

I'm finding you have to keep your wrist straight and tight (BW's "thrower is resisting wrist bending"), I just stumbled on it in a different manner. If I'm understanding this correctly, then keeping your wrist loose is using it more as a "hinge than a spring". By the time you get to the hit, you are just flinging open a loose wrist, and there is no spring. There's very little tendon bounce there. When you keep your wrist tighter, then the weight of the disc is pressing back against a spring, created by a tight wrist, and your wrist quickly closes and opens, sending the disc flying. That is new my understanding of tendon bounce. One of the instruction articles talks about bending back the wooden spoon. If you pull back on that spoon with a loose wrist, it will just stay there, until you move your forearm to swing it open. If you pull back on it with a tight wrist, that thing will spring back forward without having to move your arm. Now if you could couple that with extending your forearm, you would send that spoon flying across the room. Same principle with a disc.

I haven't read this thread that closely, but now I figure I can go back and read it with a better understanding.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:19 pm

Man_Utenbart wrote:Sorry, I meant where in the pull should you feel the weight of the disc :)


I don't mean to be evasive, but it would depend on how far you reached back. You would feel it at the point where your body rotation and arm start to pull the disc. If you move the disc with your arm, you won't feel the weight at all.

I don't know that there is any one way to bring the disc through or one way to rotate. Thus, it could be in a variety of places.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:22 pm

gretagun wrote:
black udder wrote: You don't want to grip tightly anywhere before that or you reduce your ability to flex and reduce your tendon bounce


For the longest time I have tried to stay loose in my grip and wrist, and this was keeping me right around the 350 ft plateau. Some days I'd get a little further, and some days I wouldn't, but I couldn't get past this. I read something in the new Disc Golfer magazine grip articles that changed my approach to this. Carlton Howard wrote "Do not try to have an incredible "wrist snapping motion" at/near the point of release." This struck me as odd, and contradicted everything I "thought" I had learned or understood about snap. I was curious, so I started throwing with a tighter wrist, and added the easiest distance yet to my throws. When I refer to tighter, I don't mean clenching down with all my strength, but i would not describe my wrist or grip as loose anymore.

I'm finding you have to keep your wrist straight and tight (BW's "thrower is resisting wrist bending"), I just stumbled on it in a different manner. If I'm understanding this correctly, then keeping your wrist loose is using it more as a "hinge than a spring". By the time you get to the hit, you are just flinging open a loose wrist, and there is no spring. There's very little tendon bounce there. When you keep your wrist tighter, then the weight of the disc is pressing back against a spring, created by a tight wrist, and your wrist quickly closes and opens, sending the disc flying. That is new my understanding of tendon bounce. One of the instruction articles talks about bending back the wooden spoon. If you pull back on that spoon with a loose wrist, it will just stay there, until you move your forearm to swing it open. If you pull back on it with a tight wrist, that thing will spring back forward without having to move your arm. Now if you could couple that with extending your forearm, you would send that spoon flying across the room. Same principle with a disc.

I haven't read this thread that closely, but now I figure I can go back and read it with a better understanding.


A tighter wrist and a tighter grip are two different things. What I was saying is that you don't clench down on the disc until it starts to almost rotate out of your grip. It's a late pull and a late (almost automatic) gripping that ejects the disc. This is my interpretation of a conversation I had with Blake. As for my wrist, I haven't thought about it. Just focusing on a later pull and looser grip jacked me up from the 325'+ area to the 350'+ area. Still working on it, so still learning some things.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby JR » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:03 pm

Dan it's difficult to diagnose what's going on without seeing before and after vids. Blake should be able to quickly identify if it's some of the usual suspects. Like working out so much that you're too stiff to accelerate quickly enough, concentrating on other things losing body control accelerating less, taking too much arm speed off trying to accelerate late, not enough left leg push or hip twist (in a recent vid you weren't close to facing the target), not reaching back far enough, too slow steps, slipping grip, too late or weak thumb/index finger pinch, lack of suitable grip/wrist tension etc.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Sun Jul 12, 2009 11:40 am

black udder wrote:I'd say yes. It's not a long thing, but if you feel it then, to me, it means that your arm is relaxed and you're not "throwing" as much as using your body/form as a mechanical devices to launch the disc.


Kee-rect.

I was explaining snap throwing to one of my playing partners. I told him I make no effort the throw the disc forward except to move the disc into the apex. Instead I actually almost pulling backwards at the launch. He looked at me like I had a horn growing out of my head.

Check this out (daily thought to blow your mind):

Throwing forward=weight back
pulling back = weight forward
Last edited by Bradley Walker on Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Beetard » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:59 pm

Bradley Walker, thanks to this article I am starting to get it.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Flipflat » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:02 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:
black udder wrote:I'd say yes. It's not a long thing, but if you feel it then, to me, it means that your arm is relaxed and you're not "throwing" as much as using your body/form as a mechanical devices to launch the disc.


Kee-rect.

I was explaining snap throwing to one of my playing partners. I told him I make to effort the throw the disc forward. Instead I actually almost pulling backwards at the launch. He looked at me like I had a horn growing out of my head.

Check this out (daily thought to blow your mind):

Throwing forward=weight back
pulling back = weight forward


It would be really cool to get this on video. Youtube would be great.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby dgdave » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:04 pm

I can totally feel all this happen when I'm on. Even on short shots. I just wish I could do it every throw, then make the putt.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:34 pm

Beetard wrote:Bradley Walker, thanks to this article I am starting to get it.


HA HA... I haven't written the article yet. This was just the nomenclature.

I plan on writing the article starting this week.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:44 pm

Man_Utenbart wrote:Sorry, I meant where in the pull should you feel the weight of the disc :)


Feeling the weight of the disc is critical.

The weight of the disc is in the center of the disc. You hold it from the rim. The key is to learn to manipulate the center weight from the rim. This offset weight is one the keys to creating the explosive forward launch.

So, there is an element of the throw that is more like throwing a hatchet, hammer, etc or any other weight on the end of a stick.

I have even considered making a disc with lead offset on one side. Then the thrower could really feel the weight swinging.

During the "loft" the disc become very light. This is due to the fact that center of the disc is entering the apex. To me it feels like throwing the disc into my lower arm. Then as the hand revolves around the nose at the apex, the rim/center lever occurs and the disc gets extremely heavy and is ejected forward as the hand revolves around to 3 clock. The stronger the grip immediately before ejection, the harder and later the ejection and the more radical the angle of the outward pull can take.

Look at Markus Kollstrum. He has such a radical exit angle after revolving around the nose, he almost appears to pull out directly to the rear. As a result, the disc violently shoots forward.
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