Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Man_Utenbart » Sun Jul 12, 2009 2:08 pm

During the "loft" the disc become very light.


Thank you. This is what I feel also, but I started wondering if one should feel the weight all the way from the start of the pull. Puhh.., good to know I have that part of my pull/loft somehow correct. Looking forward to your article. I'll bet it'll be a goodie, cause you are one heck of a dude at explaining things :)
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:52 am

Bradley Walker wrote:
Look at Markus Kollstrum. He has such a radical exit angle after revolving around the nose, he almost appears to pull out directly to the rear. As a result, the disc violently shoots forward.


http://stickitdg.com/gallery/albums/Pro-Men-Drives/markus_kallstrom_mpeg4.avi

To correct myself. The hand actually rebounds off the edge of the disc, and shoots straight off to the right. The rebound is caused by the snapping of the wrist shown in the drawing. Markus is not snapping forward, he is snapping around the rim of the disc around the nose and back.

PS: Markus has the greatest snap in the history of DG... in my opinion. His pull around the apex is so strong, he ends up nearly walking backwards after the throw.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby PeterM_Vang » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:58 am

Seeing Markus Kollstrum's freakish snap reminds me of something that Blake had me trying in the field. It almost looks like he is pulling through twice. One pull forward and when he reaches his apex, he has another pull backwards. Thus creating super "I THROW FAR" snap and also causing him to almost walk backwards after his follow through. It's a little hard to explain but, maybe Blake can chime in.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Blink » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:33 pm

May not be the same thing, but sometimes after a throw I'll back up to regain my balance. I'm not sure if its just for a certain line I throw or a fluke, probably for nose up hyzer shots. It would happen once every round or two.

I used to spin 360 degrees in my follow through back when I was trying to minimize stress on my rotator cuff. Granted I used to imitate Kallstrom along with other pro throws. When I have a bad throw sometimes I'll just use my follow through to immediately turn and walk back to my bag lol...
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Mon Jul 13, 2009 12:45 pm

PeterM_Vang wrote:Seeing Markus Kollstrum's freakish snap reminds me of something that Blake had me trying in the field. It almost looks like he is pulling through twice. One pull forward and when he reaches his apex, he has another pull backwards. Thus creating super "I THROW FAR" snap and also causing him to almost walk backwards after his follow through.


Uh huh...

Inward pull
loft
apex
radius disc
outward pull
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:53 pm

PeterM_Vang wrote:Seeing Markus Kollstrum's freakish snap reminds me of something that Blake had me trying in the field. It almost looks like he is pulling through twice. One pull forward and when he reaches his apex, he has another pull backwards. Thus creating super "I THROW FAR" snap and also causing him to almost walk backwards after his follow through. It's a little hard to explain but, maybe Blake can chime in.


I want to say that Blake said he's not really weight forward, but he's throwing so strong that he's able to counter the negative effects of throwing a little weight back. if you freeze at his hit, you'll see that he's a tiny bit weight back. There are a couple players Blake's mentioned that throw a little weight back but their power allows them to negate the effects.

I believe what MK does so well is late acceleration. He's got a late pull so his arm speed is increasing through the hit. I don't think it's coincidence that he's about the only one throwing his kind of distance without a 360.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:09 pm

I throw a little weight back... but the strong I pull in the outward pull the better I follow through.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby tumpsi » Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:48 pm

black udder wrote:I don't think it's coincidence that he's about the only one throwing his kind of distance without a 360.

You should visit Scandinavia, especially Finland & Sweden.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Man_Utenbart » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:05 pm

What? No Norway? We have some big guns here too. Unfortunately I'm not one of them. Yet :)
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:28 pm

tumpsi wrote:
black udder wrote:I don't think it's coincidence that he's about the only one throwing his kind of distance without a 360.

You should visit Scandinavia, especially Finland & Sweden.


I know there are some long throwers, more now than ever, but MK certainly gets the most attention. Who are some of the folks you're thinking of? Do they play outside their native countries? I know Jesper gets a fair amount of press... who else? Honestly interested.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby JR » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:33 pm

I've thrown standstills with little power to try to learn the mechanics two or three ears ago and repeating it later. It adds strain to the arm and my injuries prevent me from using it on faster throws. I haven't been able to practice it but I'm quite certain that my timing at least but likely my lack of arm/finger strength also lets the disc slip out too early on full power. I have trouble curling my arm around the disc because my strength diminishes curling to 9 o'clock and that's partially due to extreme position of the arm and partly due to the induced tightness of the forearm. Therefore slowing the arm motion being too stiff. That's why I only reach as far as I can comfortably at this time. That is 12 o'clock trying to release at 6 o'clock with the minimal power training and slipping out much earlier with full power throws. Unless I pull from out to in from reach back to right pec then changing the direction of the arm pull to linear along the chest with the elbow fully out. Then I manage 9.30.

With a linear arm pull grazing my chest all the way not putting the elbow out quite as far as it could, protecting my achy deltoids, with minimal power I do pull back with the shoulders, hips and leg work once the elbow is straightening. Just prior to the elbow becoming straight which gives me time to pivot the disc from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock once the elbow is straight. While pulling the elbow back away from the target once it straightens out fully to maximize the spin rate of the disc. I do get a rip at 6 o'clock this way and the disc spins visibly faster. High speed video has confirmed this.

Using minimal power it is possible to clamp hard enough with the index finger and the thumb so that the disc does not rip flying forward. I've had the disc drop vertically or flying backward. If the disc edge hits something dropping vertically it _shoots_ away from the contact sideways. After having no sideways momentum whatsoever previously.

My arm is on the edge of perhaps allowing to train stiffening the wrist and stopping it now on harder throws. I'm sure that usually my timing with the shoulders pulling back away from the target is off and I've never been able to straighten my elbow and pull it back while holding on to the disc on full power throws. Not enough grip strength or grip lock and in any case an inflamed arm. Lot's to do in the future and weight lifting to give more muscle mass to absorb the stresses of snapping hard.

I've been able to get my arm to snap really fast compared to usual without the disc in the hand late last week. Concentrating on stiffening the wrist late in the throw trying to stop it. The feeling is different using the wrist as a spring opposed to hinge that I've been forced to use so far. Too bad my strength is lacking and the only time I've played after this I was tired, slow and stiff and with a disc in hand the added muscle stiffness made trying to stiffen my wrist impossible for me. My arm under the elbow wasn't as loose as usual and after two rounds trying this at a field was pointless because I couldn't generate arm acceleration. I compared Rocs, Teebirds and Bosses and it would seem that Rocs are easier to keep the arm muscles loose until late in the throw. But being wasted from work and playing makes snap practice impossible. My tip is to come fully rested to snap practice. Too much work for me in the near future to be rested :-(

Without using the Brinster grip and pulling close to the chest in a straight line trying to get the elbow out it still is difficult for me to grip the disc close to 9 o'clock without stiffening the forearm, wrist and fingers with tall discs. I think part of this comes from not punching the elbow out toward the target fast enough before the elbow chop. Babying deltoids :-( My small stature and hand are probably at fault too YMMV. I think small diameter thin discs help in learning to pivot the disc more degrees along the edge of the disc. The benefit to more hand rotation along the disc edge is to gain time to spin it faster=harder snap. I've yet to try the Brinster grip trying to snap a disc but that's in the cards for near future. If only I could get the rest to try snapping at higher speeds grrr.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Star Shark » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:58 pm

Other scandinavian golfers who can throw - Linus Astrom, Ville Piipo, Espen Mekkelgjerd, Jussi Meresmaa. There are a number of them.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby JR » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:02 am

black udder wrote:
tumpsi wrote:
black udder wrote:I don't think it's coincidence that he's about the only one throwing his kind of distance without a 360.

You should visit Scandinavia, especially Finland & Sweden.


I know there are some long throwers, more now than ever, but MK certainly gets the most attention. Who are some of the folks you're thinking of? Do they play outside their native countries? I know Jesper gets a fair amount of press... who else? Honestly interested.


Jesper Lundmark (SWE) equals or comes close to Markus without a 360 sometimes. I have him on a DVD pulling level with the left knee releasing at the top of the left knee height. Jesper pulls at navel height usually. How far does Linus throw? He was behind some of the big guns last year at Tali Open but he's young. He should improve each year for quite a while still.

Rehder and Mejlholm how far does Karl Johan Höj Nybo (DEN) throw? He throws very much like Markus Källström.

Espen Mökkelgjerd (NOR) has thrown 600' with a Teebird. I suspect a 360 with that but don't know for certain. Man_utenbart do you know more about this?

Tumpsi and fullbag do you know how far Finns throw without a 360 in usual circumstances? I don't know how hard Jussi Meresmaa was trying at warm up in the two previous Tali Opens but he didn't manage 500' often at sea level with a 360. Miko Fyhr has thrown 191 meters in Finland holding the title of the longest throw made by a Finn in Finland. I suspect a 360 but don't know for sure. I think it was at Oulu which, if true, means close to or at sea level. Miko threw OB on the second to last round last year on hole 18 at Tali Open which is a window initially then the fairway turning right 25 or so degrees. As far or farther as Jesper Lundmark in 2006 final at about 500'. I didn't see Miko's throw just found the disc way annied or rolled OB. I suspect an anny because it was OB right on an OB hole with bushes and trees hampering rollers. Then there's Juho the second place guy at big D 8. Anyone else I forgot? I've never seen Ville Piippo throw super far with regular throws but he has tommied 500'. I've seen him push 330' with Rocs last summer but in that session he sprayed so that's likely not his forte then. He has switched from predominantly sidearms and overhands to a mix of each style lately so backhands last summer aren't indicative yet. He might be the physically strongest disc golfer so there's a lot of distance potential. Skills are coming along nicely being the current European champ.

Outside of Nordic countries Germany has at least three big guns. Former distance record holder Chris "Max" Voigt, Michael Steltzer (second at European championships) and Andrei Betea. Don't know the details of how far they throw without 360s. German DGR members know of them? A couple of Germans come to tali Open in a bit over a month so perhaps I'll be able to ask them details then.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby tumpsi » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:13 am

Man_Utenbart wrote:What? No Norway? We have some big guns here too. Unfortunately I'm not one of them. Yet :)

And of course Norway, but DG isn't that big there compared to Finland & Sweden (afaik) -> less big guns & touring pro's. Good luck on becoming one of them!

black udder wrote:
tumpsi wrote:
black udder wrote:I don't think it's coincidence that he's about the only one throwing his kind of distance without a 360.

You should visit Scandinavia, especially Finland & Sweden.


I know there are some long throwers, more now than ever, but MK certainly gets the most attention. Who are some of the folks you're thinking of? Do they play outside their native countries? I know Jesper gets a fair amount of press... who else? Honestly interested.

Some of them play EuroTour, and a few tours in majors too. Some names to watch, they all have 450'+ golf D and a 985+ rating (we've only got 20ish 1000+ rated players in europe, so that's something). I didn't check these from the PDGA or anything, just from my head, so don't be surprised if I forgot someone. The biggest guns are listed first.

Finns:
Jussi Meresmaa /discmania
Juho Parviainen
Miko Fyhr
Jesse Heinonen /discmania
Ville Piippo
Joonas Hynönen /latitude64
Timo Pursio /discmania
Kalle Savonen
Juho Rantalaiho /discmania
Mikko Kaakinen /discmania

Sweden:
Markus Källström /discmania
Christian Sandström /innova
Linus Åström /latitude64
Jesper Lundmark /latitude64

Norway:
Espen mökkelgjerd /innova
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby tumpsi » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:20 am

JR wrote:
black udder wrote:
tumpsi wrote:
black udder wrote:I don't think it's coincidence that he's about the only one throwing his kind of distance without a 360.

You should visit Scandinavia, especially Finland & Sweden.


I know there are some long throwers, more now than ever, but MK certainly gets the most attention. Who are some of the folks you're thinking of? Do they play outside their native countries? I know Jesper gets a fair amount of press... who else? Honestly interested.


Jesper Lundmark (SWE) equals or comes close to Markus without a 360 sometimes. I have him on a DVD pulling level with the left knee releasing at the top of the left knee height. Jesper pulls at navel height usually. How far does Linus throw? He was behind some of the big guns last year at Tali Open but he's young. He should improve each year for quite a while still.

Linus can throw over 500' IIRC.

Rehder and Mejlholm how far does Karl Johan Höj Nybo (DEN) throw? He throws very much like Markus Källström.

Espen Mökkelgjerd (NOR) has thrown 600' with a Teebird. I suspect a 360 with that but don't know for certain. Man_utenbart do you know more about this?

Tumpsi and fullbag do you know how far Finns throw without a 360 in usual circumstances? I don't know how hard Jussi Meresmaa was trying at warm up in the two previous Tali Opens but he didn't manage 500' often at sea level with a 360. Miko Fyhr has thrown 191 meters in Finland holding the title of the longest throw made by a Finn in Finland. I suspect a 360 but don't know for sure. I think it was at Oulu which, if true, means close to or at sea level. Miko threw OB on the second to last round last year on hole 18 at Tali Open which is a window initially then the fairway turning right 25 or so degrees. As far or farther as Jesper Lundmark in 2006 final at about 500'. I didn't see Miko's throw just found the disc way annied or rolled OB. I suspect an anny because it was OB right on an OB hole with bushes and trees hampering rollers. Then there's Juho the second place guy at big D 8. Anyone else I forgot? I've never seen Ville Piippo throw super far with regular throws but he has tommied 500'. I've seen him push 330' with Rocs last summer but in that session he sprayed so that's likely not his forte then. He has switched from predominantly sidearms and overhands to a mix of each style lately so backhands last summer aren't indicative yet. He might be the physically strongest disc golfer so there's a lot of distance potential. Skills are coming along nicely being the current European champ.

Outside of Nordic countries Germany has at least three big guns. Former distance record holder Chris "Max" Voigt, Michael Steltzer (second at European championships) and Andrei Betea. Don't know the details of how far they throw without 360s. German DGR members know of them? A couple of Germans come to tali Open in a bit over a month so perhaps I'll be able to ask them details then.

There are at least 20ish(=roughly 10% of the active Open) players in Finland who can throw over 450' golf D (on an open hole). A few can go beyond 500'. Miko threw 191m(626') in Nokia Open 2008 distance showcase, and afaik it was a 360. I've seen Ville throw 500ish forehand golf drives a few times, and he has thrown over 525' on a field.
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