"Tree" Ace?

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"Tree" Ace?

Postby Barbikes » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:43 pm

I had a throw today (casual play) that got stuck on a tree branch about ten feet above the basket (#10 at Lakewood, locals). I shook the tree and the disc fell down and hit the ground about two feet from the basket. It made me wonder. What if the disc fell in the basket? Would you count it as an ace? I realize that in casual play I could score it however I wanted but if this is tournament play and the TD has stated that the 2 meter rule is not in effect then how should it be played/scored?
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Re: "Tree" Ace?

Postby JimW » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:45 pm

You mark your lie directly below where the disc in the tree is and play from there.
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Re: "Tree" Ace?

Postby Barbikes » Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:48 pm

JimW wrote:You mark your lie directly below where the disc in the tree is and play from there.



OK
I'm saying (hypothetically) that it's DIRECTLY above the basket. ACE?
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Re: "Tree" Ace?

Postby Redisculous » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:00 pm

The disc has to come to rest in the basket, not above it. DROT's do not count, so above the basket in a tree does not count. Even if you shook the tree and it landed in the basket it wouldn't count because it came to rest in the tree.

The only way this could possibly count is if it got stuck in a branch, and then fell in before you did anything to the tree. I know people are probably going to disagree saying that it came to rest in the tree so it doesnt count, and it's a strong arguement, but here's my logic:

If your disc gets stuck in the side of the basket it is an ace, unless it falls out before you can grab it out. By the same standards, if the disc gets caught above the basket and then falls in... it should count right?
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Re: "Tree" Ace?

Postby curt » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:22 pm

The only way this could possibly count is if it got stuck in a branch, and then fell in before you did anything to the tree. I know people are probably going to disagree saying that it came to rest in the tree so it doesnt count, and it's a strong arguement, but here's my logic:

If your disc gets stuck in the side of the basket it is an ace, unless it falls out before you can grab it out. By the same standards, if the disc gets caught above the basket and then falls in... it should count right?


The rules committee addresses the "stuck in a tree" scenario in the Rules Q&A and basically they determined that a disc can't really be at rest in a tree. The disc isn't considered at rest until you mark it.

That being said, the thrower going up and shaking the tree would constitute interference, and the disc would be put back where it was (in theory, i'm sure its not really expected that you put it back up in the tree) so the disc can be marked directly below where it was in the tree.

Now, if your disc got stuck in a tree, directly above the basket, and then the next player's disc knocked out of the tree and into the basket: ACE!!!
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Re: "Tree" Ace?

Postby Craig » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:37 pm

curt wrote:
The rules committee addresses the "stuck in a tree" scenario in the Rules Q&A and basically they determined that a disc can't really be at rest in a tree. The disc isn't considered at rest until you mark it.


This doesn't sound right. Hopefully Chuck will chime in, but I think a disc can come to rest in a tree - otherwise, in a tournament where the 2 meter rule is in effect, a person could wait for days for their disc to come to rest (hoping that some wind or something will knock their disc out of the tree).

Also, it's my understanding that you don't have to get to a disc stuck in the side of a basket before it falls for it to be considered to be in - it just has to come to a rest like that.

I could swear that Chuck said something about this on this forum before - maybe I'm just remembering wrong.
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Re: "Tree" Ace?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:58 pm

The disc in the tree is not 'at rest' until the player gets to it to mark it. Then, they have to mark it and can't wait on the possibility it falls. If it falls before the player gets to it and it goes in the basket, then ace. Likewise, if it drops to the ground and rolls OB, it's OB.

However, there's a big loop hole the RC hasn't closed when a disc is suspended above the ground up to 2m (not on the basket) when the 2m rule is in effect and at any height when it's not in effect (by default). If you read sections 803.08 B thru D, they only apply when the 2m rule is in effect. Technically, there's no rule about what to do when a disc is above the playing surface, the 2m rule is not in effect and the disc falls down before the player gets to it.

I think a player could ask the group to say the disc is at rest and then if it fell down, the lie would remain below where the disc was stuck. If the group refused to do so, then the nearest applicable rule would be borrowing the "above 2m rule" which allows discs above 2m to fall before the player arrives. What is not covered at all is when a disc is suspended less than 2m regardless whether the 2m rule is in effect or not. If the disc falls before the player gets to it, they could argue that it was at rest if the group agrees and mark it below where it landed in the tree. If the group watched it roll OB, they might want to argue the disc was really still moving and the player gets the OB. Like I said, it's an area that needs shoring up.

Same thing for disc in the side of the basket. if the player gets the "at rest" call from the group, then player can walk to their disc with no fear of it dropping. However, most groups like to make the player run to the basket and won't give the at rest call.
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Re: "Tree" Ace?

Postby mark12b » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:56 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Same thing for disc in the side of the basket. if the player gets the "at rest" call from the group, then player can walk to their disc with no fear of it dropping. However, most groups like to make the player run to the basket and won't give the at rest call.

haha, yeah, it's more entertaining that way. :lol: :lol:
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Re: "Tree" Ace?

Postby Craig » Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:54 pm

Does this mean that a disc is not at rest until the group says it's at rest? I'm assuming that, if a disc was stuck in the side of a basket, and then a while later it falls out, the group can agree after the fact that it was at rest - right?

What if it's clearly at rest, and the group doesn't agree?

What if you get to the basket, and you see it starting to wiggle due to the wind, or if you see it starting to slowly slide out - is it at rest? If you grab it, is that a penalty?
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