Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Man_Utenbart » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:39 am

Janne:

I don't know if Espen used a 360 when throwing 600', but I watched him a few weeks ago throwing pure anhyzers 460+ with very little effort. Minimum arm speed, the discs did'nt fly very fast, but the spin was from another planet. Biiig snap! I belive he has a 1st and 2nd place in the distance competition at the worlds.

Tumpsi:

Thanks for wishing me good luck, I'll do my best. I just hope my age soon will start dropping :)
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby JR » Tue Jul 14, 2009 1:11 am

Man_Utenbart wrote:Janne:

I don't know if Espen used a 360 when throwing 600', but I watched him a few weeks ago throwing pure anhyzers 460+ with very little effort. Minimum arm speed, the discs did'nt fly very fast, but the spin was from another planet. Biiig snap! I belive he has a 1st and 2nd place in the distance competition at the worlds.

Tumpsi:

Thanks for wishing me good luck, I'll do my best. I just hope my age soon will start dropping :)


This is super important to know thanks! It's doesn't take a detective to figure out which thrower Espen was in the thesis of Öystein Carlsen and there he had a much lower spin rate on the disc as Erin Hemmings has posted of his measurements. IIRC about 24 revolutions per second for Espen and about 40 for Erin. Based on my slipping 17 with a Roadrunner I'd say that either Espen has improved or switched styles to more snap dominant or failed in the measured throws in the thesis.

And definitely good luck in competing.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby dflaschiii » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:37 am

Just watched a pretty good video of some of these scandinavian guys playing, in HD quality it's really good footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xB0ZVh7soY

I am particularly impressed by Joonas Hynönen especially around 9:35 mark, great camera angle to examine his technique, very close to chest, very quick pull, KABOOM.

Hopefully this guy will post the rest of this round, the course is awesome.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby tumpsi » Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:45 am

dflaschiii wrote:Just watched a pretty good video of some of these scandinavian guys playing, in HD quality it's really good footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xB0ZVh7soY

I am particularly impressed by Joonas Hynönen especially around 9:35 mark, great camera angle to examine his technique, very close to chest, very quick pull, KABOOM.

Hopefully this guy will post the rest of this round, the course is awesome.

Yeah, he'll post some more footage of the final round when he gets them edited. The course is the best I've ever seen/played. :) There's also Ville Piippo, Jesse Heinonen, and Juho Rantalaiho on the lead group.

edit: oops, that's from saturday. The finals played on sunday. We'll have to wait a few days more.
edit2: Joonas shot an amazing round saturday, a 61 (-10). Thats going to be over 1030 easily.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Bradley Walker » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:10 am

dflaschiii wrote:Just watched a pretty good video of some of these scandinavian guys playing, in HD quality it's really good footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xB0ZVh7soY

I am particularly impressed by Joonas Hynönen especially around 9:35 mark, great camera angle to examine his technique, very close to chest, very quick pull, KABOOM.

Hopefully this guy will post the rest of this round, the course is awesome.


Is that the chubby kid win the striped black shirt? Cuz he kills it.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby tumpsi » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:18 am

Bradley Walker wrote:
dflaschiii wrote:Just watched a pretty good video of some of these scandinavian guys playing, in HD quality it's really good footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xB0ZVh7soY

I am particularly impressed by Joonas Hynönen especially around 9:35 mark, great camera angle to examine his technique, very close to chest, very quick pull, KABOOM.

Hopefully this guy will post the rest of this round, the course is awesome.


Is that the chubby kid win the striped black shirt? Cuz he kills it.

Yes.

edit: and I'm pretty sure that's a Sinus SP he threw.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby gretagun » Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:58 am

black udder wrote:
A tighter wrist and a tighter grip are two different things. What I was saying is that you don't clench down on the disc until it starts to almost rotate out of your grip. It's a late pull and a late (almost automatic) gripping that ejects the disc. This is my interpretation of a conversation I had with Blake. As for my wrist, I haven't thought about it. Just focusing on a later pull and looser grip jacked me up from the 325'+ area to the 350'+ area. Still working on it, so still learning some things.


Sorry, BU, I think I missed at what you were getting at. You are correct, that a tighter wrist and grip are two different things. I have just been having a lot of success with keeping both my wrist and grip firm. By doing this, I don't even think about clenching down at the hit anymore, it just happens. By keeping the wrist tighter and resisting bending, I get a lot more spin on the disc, and have been throwing shots I never thought were possible. (for me)
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:58 am

gretagun wrote:
black udder wrote:
A tighter wrist and a tighter grip are two different things. What I was saying is that you don't clench down on the disc until it starts to almost rotate out of your grip. It's a late pull and a late (almost automatic) gripping that ejects the disc. This is my interpretation of a conversation I had with Blake. As for my wrist, I haven't thought about it. Just focusing on a later pull and looser grip jacked me up from the 325'+ area to the 350'+ area. Still working on it, so still learning some things.


Sorry, BU, I think I missed at what you were getting at. You are correct, that a tighter wrist and grip are two different things. I have just been having a lot of success with keeping both my wrist and grip firm. By doing this, I don't even think about clenching down at the hit anymore, it just happens. By keeping the wrist tighter and resisting bending, I get a lot more spin on the disc, and have been throwing shots I never thought were possible. (for me)


When I started gripping tightly, I started having issues with my index finger (probably just introduction to early arthritis). When I went back to not gripping tightly, just letting my hand grip naturally, I don't have as much of an issue. It's probably the only reason I mention it at all and why I even pay any attention to when I grip.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby DaPats » Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:17 am

I don't know about the loose wrist throw. It seems to have to much variables in it. A loose wrist and grip before the hit just seems like you will always need to have that perfect timing compared to having a firm grip on the disc from the reach back to the hit. I get way more control with having a firm grip which translates into having a firm wrist. There is no such thing as a loose wrist with a firm grip. Plus by having a firm grip also loads all your other muscles you are going to use.

I have watched a bunch of videos of top pros across the country and one thing you can tell is their forearms are loaded from the reach back to the hit. You can't do that with a loose grip.

Plus with a firm grip you only have to control how fast of arm speed you want or how far of a reach back you want.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby black udder » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:29 pm

It's actually working better for me. Throw in a straight line and it just happens. You pivot and stop your elbow at your target and the forearm just goes out, wrist snaps and disc goes.

Not saying it's "the" way or anything, I can't throw 500', so obviously, I'm not perfect, but it sure does help my body to throw this way, thus, I'm continuing too.

It's quite possible that it doesn't matter how tight you grip the disc or how tight you keep your wrist - as long as you stop the elbow, move the wrist and your grip is at it's strongest at the rip. If you meet those factors, perhaps nothing else matters.

It's all timing, so if you have your timing down with whatever scenario you use, I suspect you'll be successful.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby RoomTenONine » Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:27 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:
PeterM_Vang wrote:Seeing Markus Kollstrum's freakish snap reminds me of something that Blake had me trying in the field. It almost looks like he is pulling through twice. One pull forward and when he reaches his apex, he has another pull backwards. Thus creating super "I THROW FAR" snap and also causing him to almost walk backwards after his follow through.


Uh huh...

Inward pull
loft
apex
radius disc
outward pull


This is what I was getting at in my earlier posts in this thread. Thanks for continuing the discussion. This is all awesome.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby DaPats » Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:10 pm

black udder wrote:It's actually working better for me. Throw in a straight line and it just happens. You pivot and stop your elbow at your target and the forearm just goes out, wrist snaps and disc goes.

Not saying it's "the" way or anything, I can't throw 500', so obviously, I'm not perfect, but it sure does help my body to throw this way, thus, I'm continuing too.

It's quite possible that it doesn't matter how tight you grip the disc or how tight you keep your wrist - as long as you stop the elbow, move the wrist and your grip is at it's strongest at the rip. If you meet those factors, perhaps nothing else matters.

It's all timing, so if you have your timing down with whatever scenario you use, I suspect you'll be successful.

Actually it does matter if you have a firm grip over a loose grip when throwing. I am not saying tight but firm. The tightness comes at the hit. The firm grip helps with all your muscles to pull the disc through the body faster from the reach back. The weight of the disc will open your wrist no matter how hard you are holding the disc at the hit. A firmer grip will help those people with good technique and loose grips that are suck in the 350 range, to explode into the 400 range.

The article in that magazine that gretagun refered to is spot on. Having a firm grip will create sore fingers at first but that will go away with time. Even if you watch Beato's instuctional video you can see his forearm muscles tighted up at the reach back. Just sayin.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Blink » Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:15 pm

From my experience the more relaxed my arm/grip is(while still being secure), the more tendon bounce I get. Perhaps the tendons in your arm/hand parallel that of a longer reach-back when you abruptly tighten them from a more and more relaxed state. If you become loose, or your tendons have slack, this is when I think it becomes dangerous. I could be wrong but I wouldn't think tighter is better until the rip.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby Blake_T » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:42 pm

well, after attempting to teach this stuff for the past 7 years, that's a good breakdown, Brad.

it's still tough as hell to teach it hehe.

as to address some of the stuff that has come up...

there are players who can exert enough wrist/forearm rigidity when clenched (myself included) that their wrist literally stays straight during their throw without the magical wrist coil ever happening. i actually started throwing without a wrist brace this year for the first time since 2005 (although i now have to wear a knee brace) and i've noticed that my snap potential is back up. there's only a handful of people i have met ever in disc golf that were able to have a really tight grip while keeping their wrist fluid enough to move (most of these people also have very big hands and get natural leverage on the rim). if you have small hands you will have a much tougher time having a tight grip with a flexible wrist.

it is easier to LEARN the feel aspects this with a loose wrist. if that requires a loose grip, so be it. in the long run you will likely want to firm up or have a clench. learning and using are two different things.

the things that throw people off most in snap training... happen because most ams have a constant speed of shoulder rotation and keep their elbow moving too far around their bodies. kallstrom is the best example there is of a two-stage pull (Brad gave these fancy names). to achieve those stages, your shoulders have to go from turned away to parallel, the disc comes forward, THEN the shoulders continue opening up to being somewhat faced up. the magical wrist extension (with hyper-spin potential) requires the elbow to stop moving until AFTER the hit... as this is what triggers the forearm extension.

two big things for those not throwing 350', the pull MUST be very close to the body and the arm motion must be triggered from the shoulder rotation and not due to strong arming a pull.
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Re: Snap 2009

Postby XvileX » Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:59 pm

Blake_T wrote:two big things for those not throwing 350', the pull MUST be very close to the body and the arm motion must be triggered from the shoulder rotation and not due to strong arming a pull.


Well, hot damn. I did teach myself something working from the hit back. This was precisely what I had to do to fix my form issues. Or.. at least one of the big ones.
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