Mid-Range by Committee

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Mid-Range by Committee

Postby trogdor » Mon Jan 30, 2006 9:40 pm

Living in Denver, home of the Running Back by Committee, I think I'm going to a midrange by Committee.

I've thrown at least one Roc every round for several years now, but am thinking of getting rid of them. I carry 3 Rocs in various stages of wear. Lately I can't control what the Rocs are doing. If I want it to hyzer, it goes anhyzer. If I want it to anhyzer, it goes hyzer. I can't remember the last time I got a Roc to go straight. (On purpose)

Normally, I would throw a Roc on shots ranging from 200 - 300 feet. Looking at the rest of my bag, it occurred to me that maybe I can give up on the sacred Roc! Here's how:

Whippet - any kind of Hyzer in that range - fairly strong headwind shots
Cobra - looks like a Roc, feels as slow as a Roc, but FOR ME tons more accuracy than a Roc.
Rhyno - when it's too short for a Cobra

I feel like I throw all of these discs much better than a Roc.

Now, for the questions?

1. What is it about the Roc vs. a Cobra that makes it so hard for me to throw?
2. Are there any shots a Roc would be better suited for than the 3 disc midrange I've described?
3. Am I missing any discs from the committee?
4. Have I given up on the Roc too soon?

Thanks much,
Dan
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Postby Mark Brunner » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:15 pm

Do you have smaller hands? The profile is a little taller on the Roc than the cobra. The cobra is also a straighter disc, the Roc brand new is fairly overstable and takes some time before its completely controllable.

As much as the Roc is a great disc, it does not have to be for everyone! I cannot throw KC rocs but I love my DX rocs... however the Coyote is a disc I really am starting to love

The cobra is also faster than the roc by a little bit.
The biggest difference though as mentioned is the flight characteristics of the two discs. The Roc is more overstable and the cobra is naturally a fairly controllable straight disc that you can work any way right off the bat.
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Postby Blake_T » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:26 pm

dx cobras are understable out of the box.

rocs require a bit of snap to get them moving until they are severely beat.

imo, people are better off building their technique around a disc like a roc rather than finding discs that "work".

the hyzer/anhyzer thing sounds more like technique than the disc. newer domier rocs are more overstable than the older ones.
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midranges

Postby twmccoy » Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:30 pm

You might want to look at the Spider, Buzz, Panther and Glide to suit your midrange needs. I personally use a buzz for most full power midrange shots, but find a spider useful for shorter shots and putting. The glide and panther work great for turnover or low power shots.
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Postby bigs348 » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:22 am

I've found the Champion Panther to be my go-to midrange. I use it for shorter drives (200-250), almost any type of approach, for short lay-up thumbers, and for rolling. I can throw with almost a 90 degree angle and throw a big hyzer, I can hyzer flip it for a straight flight, and it's an incredible anhyzer disc.

Basically, through a lot of trial and error, I found that I don't like large diameter discs. Discs like a Roc and a Stingray don't feel right in my hands, so I started using a Spider and a Panther. These do very similar things compared to their larger counterparts, but are smaller in diameter and just feel better in my hands.

I think it's a matter of preference. While a Roc is good for building form and learning to control a disc, it doesn't always fit for everyone.
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panther

Postby twmccoy » Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:43 am

Yeah, that panther is a totally sweet disc. You can give it the littlest toss and get 300' out of it. In wind it is useless though.
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Postby Blake_T » Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:19 am

problem with discs like the panther, stingray, cobra, storm, etc. is that i do not consider them midranges as they are really old-school drivers. discs like the roc, shark, buzz etc, were designed to be midranges. the big setback of midranges vs. putters and super overstable drivers are that midranges have a tendency to "hang" and over-carry. old school drivers, especially understable ones, will have a greater tendency for this. a slow flying cyclone/gazelle generation driver is usually easier to fly more consistently in the tweener midrange/driver ranges because they are much more predictable finishers

the big diff in small diameter vs. large diameter is that larger diameter discs take more force to get them spinning. my favorite of the small diameter midranges was always the MRV, as i found it to be more high speed stable than the rest. this just got discontinued and i know at the shop they are clearing them out at $4.79/$5.49/$7.79 for D/X/Z.

there's only a handful of midranges i will stamp my "seal of approval" on because i believe throwing them well is indicative of good form. rocs are like teebirds in the sense that, while everyone can throw them, it is the bigger arms that show just how their flight characteristics differ from the rest of the pack. i've seen people throw rocs 450' without flipping them over, and aside from the wasp, mrv, and sentinel, i've never really seen another disc in that class that can handle that.
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Mid Range

Postby trogdor » Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:24 am

Thanks all for the responses.

Mark, I do have small hands. Thanks for the insight. The Roc has never felt "comfortable" in my hand and maybe that's what is bugging me.

Blake, I forgot to mention that the Cobra is candy plastic marked 180g.

I always think archer first, but the 3 Rocs are the only discs in my bag that I have such serious control problems with. I feel fairly confident throwing Tee-Birds (Champ, Pro, DX), Cobra (Champ) and Rhyno (DX) on a hyzer, flat of anhyzer release.

Thanks for the insight on newer rocs being more overstable than the older ones. I've experienced that, but wasn't sure if it was just wear on the older Rocs.

TWMcCoy and BigS, thanks for the thoughts on some other mid ranges.
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Postby TexasOutlaw » Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:40 am

I've never really liked a roc either. After beating one up when I started playing, it flipped into a lake. I went to a "finder" xd, and I threw this disc so much that I cracked it. (Don't know why I never replaced it; I went the mrx route ofter that )

For me, the buzz works much better than the roc. But, I do like the coyote and spider better than the roc although I don't carry either.

It could be that I do not have the proper snap for a roc, but I have never liked it. I'm thinking of giving it another try; however, I may just get a z wasp instead as it resembles a buzz.

Definately listen to Blake's advise, but part of the fun of disc golf for me is learning new discs (even when I don't stick with them).
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Re: Mid Range

Postby Mark Brunner » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:27 pm

trogdor wrote:Thanks all for the responses.

Mark, I do have small hands. Thanks for the insight. The Roc has never felt "comfortable" in my hand and maybe that's what is bugging me.



I will tell you I do not have super small hands but they are definately not big. I have always in the past had trouble gripping Rocs as well and it always felt too big for my hand in a sense.

Try avoiding the 4 finger power grip and try just the 3 finger using your middle finger as the rip point, this seems to help me. Also try a fan grip. With the 3 finger and fan grip I can throw my rocs around or over 350 consistently. With the 4 finger power grip I had very mixed results with a lot of offline shots, ranging from early to late release.
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Postby bigs348 » Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:27 pm

I hadn’t noticed the difference in spin when throwing a larger diameter disc. I didn’t really have issues with how a larger diameter disc flew – they always just felt odd in my hands and I didn’t like my grip. I have big hands, so you would think it wouldn’t be a problem. Maybe the fact that I’ve always preferred throwing drivers has grown into a bias against larger diameter discs.

Blake, I understand what you’re saying about “old-school drivers” vs. midranges. I have noticed that my Panthers will sometimes carry a bit, but I’ve learned to account for that when I throw and if I want something to just drop I’ll throw an XD. One question though: you’re always saying to throw the slowest disc that will get you there, but now are you suggesting throwing a fairway driver instead of an old-school driver/midrange to avoid the carry? I thought the idea was to avoid the speed and possible skip of drivers? Thanks.
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Postby Weebl » Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:16 am

I believe blake was saying how midrange discs (buzz, roc, coyote) tend to be more predictable for the distance people would use a midrange(although they do hang in the air), the old school drivers (singray, panther, cobra) tend to hang a bit more, and are harder to control the desired distance. Overstable drivers are the opposite, it's easy to undershoot as they don't hang in the air like a Roc or Stingray, they lawndart. I seem to be fairly accurate with my Roc's in terms of distance and accuracy and I also have unusually large hands, and it even is aquard in my hand. I slide my lock fingers further away from my rip finger (index) it helps me get a firmer grip on it.

The fairway driver was suggested for the distances between new age drivers and midrange. For example, for me I can get my drivers out to 400', midrange out to 325' (The buzz I can get to 360', but accuracy and predictability become a problem at that distance for me)so if I wanted a shot for 360' I would use a fairway driver instead of doing 80% power on my D drivers, as it's more predictable; less likely to overshoot/undershoot.
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Postby TexasOutlaw » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:07 am

That's an excellent point. I hear people say about how they throw their buzz for so many yards, and I can too; however, the further I throw, the less distance get. In this case, I do like going to a fairway driver (cyclone, x tracker though I've been told the x tracker is not a fairway driver).
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