Why Join the PDGA?

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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby black udder » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:16 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:If an advertiser is willing to spend say $10 per 100 viewers, how many spectators are needed to justify a sponsor putting in $1000?

And Chuck, you said "We do things for the sport in general, for the members overall, and not just the pros despite the fact it's the PDGA." Boy, you know that's a bad comment. If the AMs pulled out of PDGA membership, it would be a huge hole in revenue, wouldn't it? The expectation is that the PDGA will do something for all of disc golf, not just for the Pros.

Not sure how you read that as me saying the PDGA has been pro focused? I'm saying it has NOT been focused on pros (despite its name) but all competitive players - ams, pros, juniors - as members and with additional services provided to the whole disc golf community like rules, course guidelines, course directory, tech standards, EDGE support, etc.


Sounded like you said something like "it's supposed to be a professional organization, but we do stuff for the AMs anyway", but I can see now from your response that I read it the wrong way. Not surprising for me :D

I should have read it that the PDGA does more than it's name suggests to benefit everybody :)

What about the payout depth? Any idea why it's so deep?
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby scoot_er » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:26 pm

black udder wrote:
Chuck Kennedy wrote:If an advertiser is willing to spend say $10 per 100 viewers, how many spectators are needed to justify a sponsor putting in $1000?

And Chuck, you said "We do things for the sport in general, for the members overall, and not just the pros despite the fact it's the PDGA." Boy, you know that's a bad comment. If the AMs pulled out of PDGA membership, it would be a huge hole in revenue, wouldn't it? The expectation is that the PDGA will do something for all of disc golf, not just for the Pros.

Not sure how you read that as me saying the PDGA has been pro focused? I'm saying it has NOT been focused on pros (despite its name) but all competitive players - ams, pros, juniors - as members and with additional services provided to the whole disc golf community like rules, course guidelines, course directory, tech standards, EDGE support, etc.


Sounded like you said something like "it's supposed to be a professional organization, but we do stuff for the AMs anyway", but I can see now from your response that I read it the wrong way. Not surprising for me :D

I should have read it that the PDGA does more than it's name suggests to benefit everybody :)

What about the payout depth? Any idea why it's so deep?


Used to be 33% then it was changed to 40%. Any Idea why 50th and 57th made the same amount? Also why did I only get $80 more than someone I beat by 23 spots? Most events that $80 difference is only 1-2 spots.

I wouldn't mind seeing the top 25% payed at worlds if that could do something to boost the payout. As it stands now at worlds you have to beat 75% of the players just to get your money back which is ridiculous. Most events I play pay last cash their entry back and players higher up in the cash at least double their entry. As it stands now you have to beat 100+ players to double your entry.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Frank Delicious » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:38 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Not sure how you read that as me saying the PDGA has been pro focused? I'm saying it has NOT been focused on pros (despite its name) but all competitive players - ams, pros, juniors - as members and with additional services provided to the whole disc golf community like rules, course guidelines, course directory, tech standards, EDGE support, etc.


Now I don't hate the PDGA but that is a pretty weak list of services, the ones I really don't see are.

Course Guidelines - a 4 page document that is mostly common sense. I think anyone designing a course can figure out that a teepad should be as flat as possible without a paragraph explaining that in detail. I don't mean that sarcastically, it seems like most of what's in there would be known by anyone designing a course.

Course Directory - discgolfcoursereview.com does a much better job at this in pretty much every way.

Tech Standards - don't these only apply to discs, targets, etc that can be used in PDGA events? These aren't really a service since companies could just do what Quest did and ignore getting it approved knowing that Rec players will still buy the disc.

I do appreciate the Rules support since having a national org that can set rules makes any sport better and the EGDE program but none of those things listed need constant maintenance by more than a couple of people.

It seems like the problem is that the PDGA provides very little in tangible benefits and when asked to produce some the people just get told "We do a ton behind the scenes and we do as much as we can with what we have."
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby domromer » Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:42 pm

Do all divisions pay out to 40%?

Someone sent me a pdga chart once but I couldn't make sense of it.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:34 pm

Course Directory - discgolfcoursereview.com does a much better job at this in pretty much every way.

Perhaps you don't realize that the PDGA directory is the database source for DG Course Review in a data sharing arrangement so the PDGA supports entrepreneurial disc golf activities?

All of the less tangible services may not directly provide a personal benefit but overall are important for the sport to have credibility and where that matters is getting and keeping your mostly free courses in the ground. Before the PDGA, Park Depts were skeptical about those new fangled baskets and the game itself. All of those things like rules, tech standards, tour, championships and course guidelines can and have made the difference in courses going in the ground and potential sponsors being interested in supporting it over the years and the media writing about it. If the course guidelines are so easy, how come there are so many weak to poor designs out there? Many DG Course Reviewers don't even pay attention or know how to evaluate a course design properly.

Most of the money spent on PDGA dues goes directly back to support the members. Yes, it takes that many people with salaries to provide the basic services for answering questions (phone and email is a huge time element), planning and tracking the tour, managing the $1MM facility there, producing the magazine, website updates, managing the org with seven BOD members.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Working Stiff » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:54 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:If the course guidelines are so easy, how come there are so many weak to poor designs out there? Many DG Course Reviewers don't even pay attention or know how to evaluate a course design properly.
I think this is a function of the "free course" idea and how the sport is (or more accurately is not) promoted to the parks and recreation profession. If a disc golf course was presented as a revenue generating facility utilizing pay for play and concessions, parks departments would care about the quality of the course design and would be more willing to pay someone like you with qualifications to design it. The fact that we continue to sell the sport short and promote it as a free activity leads to poor course design becasue there is no incentive for the parks department to have a good design. World-class course or 21st century pitch and putt, they are still are not going to make squat. So why would they pay someone qualified to design the course? Save the money and let Billy Joe Bob and his cousin Bubba design it for free.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Frank Delicious » Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:58 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote: If the course guidelines are so easy, how come there are so many weak to poor designs out there? Many DG Course Reviewers don't even pay attention or know how to evaluate a course design properly.


I don't get either of these arguments. I was saying that the course guidelines are not a great example of a service provided by the PDGA. It is not that long nor does it have to be constantly updated by someone. There are a ton of reasons why there are weak or poor course designs out there. Why doesn't the PDGA allocate more resources to make sure poor and weak courses aren't put into the ground without a certified course designer looking over the plans (unless this already happens and I don't know about it)

I really don't understand the attack on people who post on DGCR. stupid Ams not knowing how to evaluate a course properly.

Most of the money spent on PDGA dues goes directly back to support the members. Yes, it takes that many people with salaries to provide the basic services for answering questions (phone and email is a huge time element), planning and tracking the tour, managing the $1MM facility there, producing the magazine, website updates, managing the org with seven BOD members.


I work for a company that services 150,000 people and we only employ 3 people to answer phones and email along with other duties. Maybe you guys aren't organized as best you can be.


I did not know about the agreement you had with DGCR but they really do a better job of presenting the information.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Frank Delicious » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:09 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote: If the course guidelines are so easy, how come there are so many weak to poor designs out there?


alternate answer: the PDGA is not a very good governing body because it has no power to enforce it's own guidelines.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Working Stiff » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:31 pm

Frank Delicious wrote:
Chuck Kennedy wrote: If the course guidelines are so easy, how come there are so many weak to poor designs out there?


alternate answer: because the PDGA is not a very good governing body because it has no power to enforce it's own guidelines.
Nothing is 100%, and I'm sure there are park departments who have some respect for the PDGA. I've just never met anyone who worked at one. Most of the parks departments I know would kick a PDGA A-tier to the curb for a family picnic if there was a mix-up over pavilion rentals. A parks department that would make an alteration to a course design that would negatively impact another user group in order to meet a PDGA guideline would have to be a very rare department.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:46 pm

I really don't understand the attack on people who post on DGCR. stupid Ams not knowing how to evaluate a course properly.

Not meant to attack. Just indicating that course design doesn't enter into many of the reviews more due to lack of knowledge about how to do it than neglect. There's nothing wrong with the reviews as they are because they rate what many other players will consider important. So it's very successful in that regard.

alternate answer: the PDGA is not a very good governing body because it has no power to enforce it's own guidelines.

Agreed. Guidelines and procedures must be done in a way that following them is in the best interest of the people they are guiding because there's very little power to enforce things. When many of these activities are done by volunteers, there's not even an economic component as leverage. The PDGA has to serve the minimum common denominator which means everyone with a specific issue may not feel enough resources are being applied to their area of interest whether it be better payouts for pros, better items when becoming a member, better magazine, better website design and info or better course designs. The spreading of limited resources to all these areas can lead to the perception of average to below average performance in areas important to each person.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby timg » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:39 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:
Course Directory - discgolfcoursereview.com does a much better job at this in pretty much every way.

Perhaps you don't realize that the PDGA directory is the database source for DG Course Review in a data sharing arrangement so the PDGA supports entrepreneurial disc golf activities?


Actually that's not quite true. The DGCR DB is entirely independent with all information coming from the members. There were talks to try to work together but things never really moved forward since the DGCR database is arranged differently, parks with multiple courses are split so each course has its own profile, longer descriptions/directions, etc. It seemed like a huge task to try to "merge" things so to speak without a major benefit to justify it (not to mention all the extra work involved on my part since I'm kind of an OCD gotta check all the course updates kind of person :)). Everybody I talked to at the PDGA was very nice though and maybe something will come of the idea at some point down the road.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:50 am

Sorry, I thought that arrangement had been worked out.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby timg » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:03 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Sorry, I thought that arrangement had been worked out.


No worries :) If it wasn't so complicated I'm sure it would have been done by now. But with updates coming from members on my site, people sending updates to the PDGA Course Directory, courses being arranged differently and different information it just seemed like a huge headache to coordinate everything properly. In the end, there were only a handful of shared fields that could be used due to the differences so it didn't seem worth it.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Timko » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:35 am

Since this thread has turned from "Join the PDGA?" to "Bigger Worlds Payout?", can someone bring light to WHY the payout in 2000 was so much higher? Was there a major sponsor who donated money?

From looking at the 2009 Budget, I wouldn't say the PDGA is brimming with cash. 230K in liquid assets isn't that much.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby some call me...tim? » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:37 am

timg wrote:
Chuck Kennedy wrote:Sorry, I thought that arrangement had been worked out.


No worries :) If it wasn't so complicated I'm sure it would have been done by now. But with updates coming from members on my site, people sending updates to the PDGA Course Directory, courses being arranged differently and different information it just seemed like a huge headache to coordinate everything properly. In the end, there were only a handful of shared fields that could be used due to the differences so it didn't seem worth it.


Hehe, I admire your modesty, Tim, but honestly, you've reinvented the wheel as far as course directories go. Makes you wonder how the old wheel ever rolled in the first place.
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