Why Join the PDGA?

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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:41 am

That's your lack of knowledge on how the process works and the files involved. Each update involves multiple passes of the database and takes most of overnight to complete on a high speed processor. You're welcome to contact Roger if you feel you would like to volunteer on the Ratings Committee and he could discuss your ideas.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby SkaBob » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:51 am

Sorry, I don't do work that complex on a volunteer basis, especially for a company I already know is ripping me off.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Timko » Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:53 am

I consider myself quite knowledgeable on most things database related if they would be interested in what I had to say. Perhaps you can pm me an email address.

How many rows are we talking about here? It's got to be under a billion.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby SkaBob » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:12 pm

It's got to be FAR less than that. If we're only working with records in the timeframe that they'd be applicable to the ratings, figure most people will be dealing with less than 30 rows per person. There will of course be the rows of all the other people at the relevant tournaments, which if you assume 50-80 people per small/average tourney is 2-3 rounds * 50-80, which is 240 rows per tourney at those numbers, many of which may not be relevant (I'm unfamiliar if say, Advanced Women's scores affect the ratings of Rec Men's rounds).

Sure I'm working with guesswork and my numbers are speculation at best, but if we figure that this past weekend is an average sample of a given weekend that's say 35 * 240...so 8400 records per weekend, tracked over the course of what was it? a year or so? roughly 436,800 rows per year to do math on, making what I'm assuming is a horrible assumption that there's no additional tables/rows to correlate how those rows affect eachother, beyond the algorithm that calculates each player's rating.
Last edited by SkaBob on Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:12 pm

Sorry, I don't do work that complex on a volunteer basis, especially for a company I already know is ripping me off.

Which is perhaps why some PDGA systems aren't as sophisticated or updated as often as they could be. Much of the systems work done over the years has been by volunteers.

As far as being ripped off, I'm guessing you've played many free rounds on the courses around the Detroit metro installed by efforts of PDGA members and PDGA partner Discraft.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Torg » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:14 pm

I don't do work that complex on a volunteer basis, especially for a company I already know is ripping me off.


If you couldn't see that coming a mile off you were blind.

I'd like to say thanks to Chuck and the PDGA for getting things going. Disc golf is still growing at an incredible rate and I think it is in part due to his work and the work of the PDGA. Yeah, it has issues and they need addressing. Peoples concerns about payouts and sponsors are valid. It isn't easy making the transition from a little sport to a larger one. We are growing at an incredible rate and responding to that is important. If you look at sports like rock-paper-scissors that get TV time, we have the model for how to grow. Umm..

On a different note. Entry fees are an issue in tourneys and having better sponsorship could help that and payouts. It isn't that entry fees are unaffordable, but it seems crazy to pay that much a couple times a month for something I can experience on a league basis for much less.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:20 pm

PDGA only sets maximum entry fees for tiers. TDs are free to charge less and some do. In a free market, if events are filling at the max entry fee allowed, it's easy to understand why TDs charge as much as they can. There are moe and more leagues popping up everywhere to allow those on a tighter budget competitive options. We hope to have sanctioned leagues with ratings but it's lack of IT resources again (which has been discussed above) that has been holding things up.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby SkaBob » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:22 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:As far as being ripped off, I'm guessing you've played many free rounds on the courses around the Detroit metro installed by efforts of PDGA members and PDGA partner Discraft.


I've played many rounds on courses installed by Ed Headrick and many other great people whose efforts are not represented by what I'm seeing from the PDGA. I'd be curious to know whether anyone currently on the board in the PDGA was involved in the installation of any of the courses in Michigan. I've only been playing around 5 years, but all of the course improvements and installations here have been done by local clubs, and I gather that's the way it's been since the 80s when Ed came through and helped design a few of my favorite ones.

I'm wholeheartedly in favor of supporting Ed Headrick, and as soon as I have that kind of money to spare, I plan to purchase a set of his memorial discs for just that purpose.

In the meantime, I have John Minicucci, Damon Evans, Daemon Stahlin, Scott White and Mark Stephens to thank for the majority of the courses I play on. John runs the local club nearest myself, and in thanks for his efforts and the positive contributions he makes without making my head spin, I run a couple of his tournaments each year for nothing more than my entrance fee being covered (and then, only if there are enough players to justify it).

I also show Discraft plenty of love in the form of the 200+ discs I've bought from them, the number of rides to tourneys I've given to their team members and the number of new players (12 so far) that I've gotten to support Discraft exclusively in their own disc golf purchases, solely because they're the local company, and I know lots of people who want to help Detroit's economy in any ways possible.
Last edited by SkaBob on Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Frank Delicious » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:24 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:As far as being ripped off, I'm guessing you've played many free rounds on the courses around the Detroit metro installed by efforts of PDGA members and PDGA partner Discraft.


Are you saying those courses wouldn't have been installed if those people hadn't been PDGA members? If a person is a PDGA member has no bearing on their efforts getting a course installed and for you to try to create a link is pretty weak.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby djext1 » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:28 pm

My question would be: Does the PDGA actually OWN any courses anywhere? Not installed, or help with...but actually OWN.

Seems to me the PDGA could not only find yet another source of income revenue by picking up some land and putting in professional class course, but could then expand to create and own multiple pro quality courses. Many 'park' courses are great...and it helps spread DG all around to new people, plus keeps it cheap, but it seems to me that the PDGA should have pay to play TOP quality courses of their own, in which they can hold major NT's and also attract sponsors at the same time.

I dunno...just wondered if the PDGA actually owns any courses of their own..
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby chiggins » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:31 pm

SkaBob wrote:Sorry, I don't do work that complex on a volunteer basis, especially for a company I already know is ripping me off.


I just wouldn't do it because, evidently, the payoff for volunteering instead of spending time on the course or with my family is to be criticized and attacked for the effort.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby SkaBob » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:32 pm

Frank Delicious wrote:Are you saying those courses wouldn't have been installed if those people hadn't been PDGA members? If a person is a PDGA member has no bearing on their efforts getting a course installed and for you to try to create a link is pretty weak.


We're in the final stages of a course installation at Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan. It was proposed, planned and installed by OU students, none of whom are PDGA members. John Minicucci helped out a great deal, and he IS a PDGA member, but the students were the ones that really got the ball rolling.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Frank Delicious » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:32 pm

djext1 wrote:My question would be: Does the PDGA actually OWN any courses anywhere? Not installed, or help with...but actually OWN.

Seems to me the PDGA could not only find yet another source of income revenue by picking up some land and putting in professional class course, but could then expand to create and own multiple pro quality courses. Many 'park' courses are great...and it helps spread DG all around to new people, plus keeps it cheap, but it seems to me that the PDGA should have pay to play TOP quality courses of their own, in which they can hold major NT's and also attract sponsors at the same time.

I dunno...just wondered if the PDGA actually owns any courses of their own..


They own the IDGC
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:40 pm

I'm saying courses go in due to the efforts of people, not necessarily the local club in which those people happen to be members. If they happen to be members of the PDGA and the Atlanta or Minnesota or Baltimore clubs, then they should get just as much credit for the installation. The PDGA is a member org with much of the work being done by volunteers. If Jim Smith is a PDGA member and decides to do the work to get a course installed, the PDGA should get some credit for that volunteer effort at a local level. Just because volunteer work isn't done for a national PDGA committee doesn't mean the PDGA wasn't involved even if no funds were exchanged.

What's bizarre about peoples' attribution of credit is the following example. If I go (on my own dime) and help a club somewhere get a course installed, people might credit that assistance to the PDGA. However, if I do it in town, the local MFA club claims or gets the credit. In either case, I'm a dues paying member of both orgs and the MFA should get just as much credit as the PDGA when I travel and help clubs. However, no one seems to want to give credit to the PDGA when they talk about all of the efforts made by PDGA members locally when the local club wasn't providing any more funds than the PDGA in the process. I realize it's human nature to attribute credit locally. But all the people did in many cases was simply pay annual dues to different orgs.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:41 pm

We're in the final stages of a course installation at Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan. It was proposed, planned and installed by OU students, none of whom are PDGA members. John Minicucci helped out a great deal, and he IS a PDGA member, but the students were the ones that really got the ball rolling.

If that's the case, hopefully they followed design gudielines produced by the PDGA and had advice from a qualified course designer who's likely a PDGA member.
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