lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

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lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby beatz » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:12 pm

Question for ya. Can a lost disc turn into a courtesy violation ?

All members of the group are looking for said lost disc one member of the group who happens to be down by 2 strokes (player a) to the person who lost disc (player b) player a happens to "possibly" see disc in thick grass but does not say anything. PLayer b's caddie, see's it right next to player a's foot as he is sweeping the grass. Caddie says ohh great you found it.


Does that make any sense ?

player A had no intention of telling player b here is your disc. I personally will give him the benefit of the doubt and Maybe he didnt see it dont know how he didnt but its possible. IS there some rule about this kind of action ????
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:20 pm

Courtesy violation at minimum. Depending on the severity it could even be a DQ in a tournament. I've seen it happen where a player who was looking went into an area to look for a bit, popped out of the woods and said something like, "Nothing over here," but said it in a way that made another player suspicious because that player had been known for suspicious behavior. Sure enough, the disc was found where that player had been looking and had said no disc was there. TD DQ'd the player who was cheating by not "finding" the disc.
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby Yehosha » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:39 pm

On the same note, what do you do if members of your group refuse to help look for a lost disc? Was in my 1st PDGA sanctioned tourney 2 weeks ago and a me and a guy in our foursome both thre our discs into the same nasty, thorny bushes. I found mine easily, but we could not find his. We repeatedly asked the other two for help, but they flat out refused and went and sat down at the next tee and smoked a bowl. Now i'm pretty sure the answer would be to say something to the TD, but when do you do this? What is the penalty for this?
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby beatz » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:44 pm

Call them on a courtesy violation, have it seconded. ONe stroke isnt enough for those two people but its something.

ALSO, IT being a pdga event its against the rules to be smoking a bowl while during the event so they could be dq'ed for such actions.
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby Yehosha » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:51 pm

beatz wrote:Call them on a courtesy violation, have it seconded. ONe stroke isnt enough for those two people but its something.

ALSO, IT being a pdga event its against the rules to be smoking a bowl while during the event so they could be dq'ed for such actions.

Well the TD flat out said they could drink and "let loose" since it was a C tier event. Tons of people were doing it so I said nothing. I forgot to mention that we exceeded the 3 minute rule by a lot and they tried to give the guy with the lost disc a stroke penalty, but he claimed the timer doesn't start until all group members are looking. I agreed with him and made sure they didn't stroke him, but they argued about it for the next 10 minutes before giving in. Were we right?
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby chiggins » Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:58 pm

Yehosha wrote:On the same note, what do you do if members of your group refuse to help look for a lost disc? Was in my 1st PDGA sanctioned tourney 2 weeks ago and a me and a guy in our foursome both thre our discs into the same nasty, thorny bushes. I found mine easily, but we could not find his. We repeatedly asked the other two for help, but they flat out refused and went and sat down at the next tee and smoked a bowl. Now i'm pretty sure the answer would be to say something to the TD, but when do you do this? What is the penalty for this?


I played in a tourney a few years ago where the pros were spotting for the Ams, which I was and am, and I threw one into some dense bushes. I and two of the other guys on my card went in without hesitation, and the pro spotting came over as well. On the way by the fourth person on the card who was clearly stalling to not have to go in, the pro announced loudly that "we don't start counting the 3 minutes until everyone on the card is helping to look, so lets go!" I liked that plenty.

You tell the TD about the partaking and they're pretty well DQ'd, which is not to say you should'na, but it's kind of an elephant gun and might be more hammer than you wanna lower on these clowns.
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby chiggins » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:06 pm

Yep, you're good:

All players of the group must, upon request, assist in searching for
the disc for the full three minutes before the disc is declared lost.
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby curt » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:00 pm

I tend to think of the other players' action in this case as an advantage. If they never help you look, you get to look until you find it. If they do start, you only get 3 minutes.
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby roman » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:38 pm

A buddy of mine had that happen to him at the last tournament we played. One hole plays down this wooded alley across a creek. He released his disc a little early and it shot into the woods to the left. Everyone looked and looked to the left with no luck, when one of the guys said that he'll go across the creek to check just to make sure the disc didn't go over. He spent the remaining part of the time on the other side of the creek looking around, then when time was called he said he looked everywhere around there and didn't find anything. My buddy took the stroke and re-teed. As the whole group walked down the fairway they spotted the disc in plain sight on the other side of the creek before they even got to the bridge. In the same spot the other guy was supposedly "looking". Everyone yelled at the guy, but the issue was never brought up to the TD. They were all rec players and didn't think there was even a rule on that.
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Tue Sep 29, 2009 5:57 am

Players are expected to help another player look. However, they aren't required to put themselves at risk in "unsafe" areas like steep slopes, pricker or razor bushes or poison ivy areas for examples. It's a common sense call whether a courtesy violation should be given for not helping to look.
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby Yehosha » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:10 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Players are expected to help another player look. However, they aren't required to put themselves at risk in "unsafe" areas like steep slopes, pricker or razor bushes or poison ivy areas for examples. It's a common sense call whether a courtesy violation should be given for not helping to look.
Right, but don't they have to at least walk the perimeter of the bushes and look in?
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby Jsw » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:27 pm

To play devils advocate here, How can you actually determine if said player actually saw the disc and chose to ignore it. Yeah - you can have your doubts about a person(especially if the player has a history of being shady), but that wouldn't hold up in court.

I've been standing less than 6 feet away from my disc and not seen it until somebody else came over and noticed it because of the angle they were looking at or just dumb luck.

Some folks are color blind, etc.

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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby Frank Delicious » Tue Sep 29, 2009 1:50 pm

This isn't a court. Judgment calls have to be made sometimes.

Every time a crazy example to play DA is thrown out there it always boils down to interpreting the rules, evaluating the situation and using good judgment.
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby Working Stiff » Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:23 pm

Frank Delicious wrote:and using good judgment.
It just struck me...now I know why I sucked at being a TD! Thanks, Frank.
Furthur wrote:Either get a lighter one, throw harder, or find a disc with more glide.
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Re: lost disc, can it turn into a courtesy violation ???

Postby curt » Tue Sep 29, 2009 7:19 pm

Every time a crazy example to play DA is thrown out there it always boils down to interpreting the rules, evaluating the situation and using good judgment.


I have to say, that despite how angry I would be at someone I suspected of lying about finding my disc, I would have a hard time justifying a DQ in that situation. I believe the rules lean toward a generally assumption towards innocence. Considering the difficulty of actually proving someone saw the disc, but said they had not, I would find it difficult to bring the charge up officially. This is especially true when I consider how angry I would be if I were DQ'ed from a tournament for that reason and had legitimately not seen the disc. (I would probably never go to another one of that TD's tournaments).

*Note: I am also working under the assumption that the disc isn't laying out in the open and is in an area that is at least mildly difficult to search. Otherwise, I don't believe this situation would come up.
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