Holding onto an object

Rules Discussion and General PDGA discussion.

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

Holding onto an object

Postby Steady 26542 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:55 am

A question came up during a casual round last week. Is it ok to hold onto an object (tree) in order to obtain balance and not fall forward? Does the object need to be behind you, or can you hold onto an object that is infront of you?
Image
Team MILLENNIUM
Team Gorilla Boy
Team Iron Lion
Steady 26542
2010 DGR Donator
User avatar
 
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Quad Cities
Favorite Disc: Omega SS

Re: Holding onto an object

Postby Timko » Thu Nov 12, 2009 10:30 am

You cannot hold an object in front of your lie. I think you can hold onto something behind your lie, but run into rule 803.04.D:

A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.


I thought I remember reading a a Q&A about this, but I can't find it at the moment.
jsun3thousand wrote:Disc golfers are holding the sport back.
Timko
Like Angels Kicking Ass in your Mouth
User avatar
 
Posts: 7708
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:21 pm
Location: KCMO

Re: Holding onto an object

Postby MDR_3000 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:17 pm

you can hold on to something that's behind your lie.
MDR_3000
I Throw Faaar
 
Posts: 825
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Davenport, IA

Re: Holding onto an object

Postby Steady 26542 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:46 pm

MDR_3000 wrote:you can hold on to something that's behind your lie.

That makes sense. Perhaps holding a tree would be considered a "supporting point." (803.04.A.2) I'll go with that. Thanks!
Image
Team MILLENNIUM
Team Gorilla Boy
Team Iron Lion
Steady 26542
2010 DGR Donator
User avatar
 
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Quad Cities
Favorite Disc: Omega SS

Re: Holding onto an object

Postby JimW » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:20 pm

It depends a bit on what the object behind you that you're holding onto is, because of the rule Furthur quoted. A solid tree trunk or branch is fine because that won't move a notable amount but something like a palm frond would be illegal because you're causing unnecessary movement to the area around your lie while take a stance.
discspeed wrote:We're not owls


The core of my game is throwing pink stuff really straight
JimW
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1381
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:08 pm
Location: Seminole, FL
Favorite Disc: Whatever

Re: Holding onto an object

Postby Fritz » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:06 pm

I always though supporting yourself on trees and such was against the rules....
Under the Stance rules. 803.04 - 803.05...

The way I see it, is if leaning or holding onto a tree or object behind you, allows you to have a better lie, but using means that are not natural to a stance would result in an unfair lie?

I dunno. What's Chuck's take on this?
FRITZ
Team Millennium
Play Smart. Keep it Simple. Throw MILLENNIUM.
#26702 ♦ CE Omega ♦ Omega SS ♦ QMS ♦ Q Sentinel ♦ CE JLS ♦ Q Polaris ♦ Q Astra ♦ QOLS ♦ QOLF ♦ Q Quasar ♦ CE Exp-1
Fritz
Naturally Athletic
User avatar
 
Posts: 4675
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Fruita, CO
Favorite Disc: QMS

Re: Holding onto an object

Postby chiggins » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:13 pm

http://www.pdga.com/faq/299#299n836

Discussion: The rules do not require that you maintain your balance while putting. You can have a grand mal seizure as long as you don't step ahead of your lie. At the time you decide to step ahead of your lie is when you have to demonstrate balance. This is simply to prove that you are not committing a falling putt, such that you would not be able to stop yourself from falling forward due to the motion of your putt. Grabbing a branch is merely acquiring another support point, which is perfectly legal, as long as it is not ahead of your lie.

Holding on to something BEHIND your lie is not prohibited by the rules, provided that the tree that the golfer is using as a supporting point is in-bounds (803.03.A (3)). The branch must not be moved, or else the player would be in violation of one or both of 803.04.D and 803.05.A, which require you to take the stance that results in the least movement of objects that are part of the course and which prohibit you from moving a branch to "make room for a throwing motion".
chiggins
2009 DGR Donator
User avatar
 
Posts: 751
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:51 am

Re: Holding onto an object

Postby MDR_3000 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:30 pm

Fritz wrote:I always though supporting yourself on trees and such was against the rules....
Under the Stance rules. 803.04 - 803.05...

The way I see it, is if leaning or holding onto a tree or object behind you, allows you to have a better lie, but using means that are not natural to a stance would result in an unfair lie?

I dunno. What's Chuck's take on this?



what's an unfair lie? you have one lie.
MDR_3000
I Throw Faaar
 
Posts: 825
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Davenport, IA

Re: Holding onto an object

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:42 pm

No problem leaning or holding onto something behind your lie like a tree trunk. In fact, you can have your caddy or other player hold your hand if you're trying to throw from a precarious position on a creek bank for example. But as pointed out, you can't hold onto something that is part of the course that might move or bend.

Here's the Q&A that someone mentioned earlier as addressing this issue:
http://www.pdga.com/faq/rules-questions ... le-putting
Chuck Kennedy
1000 Rated Poster
 
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Twin Cities

Re: Holding onto an object

Postby chiggins » Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:43 pm

Fritz wrote:I always though supporting yourself on trees and such was against the rules.... Under the Stance rules. 803.04 - 803.05...


I don't see anything in 803.04-05 that would prevent someone from using a tree (or park equipment, etc) that's behind the marker as a supporting point, so long as they're not moving it?

Fritz wrote:The way I see it, is if leaning or holding onto a tree or object behind you, allows you to have a better lie, but using means that are not natural to a stance would result in an unfair lie?


I'm trying to parse this? If you're leaning on the tree or object behind you, and your supporting point is in bounds, and the tree/branch isn't going to move when you support yourself on it, then what's unnatural about that or makes your lie better? You're not building up the lie (ie: putting rocks in casual water to keep your feet dry).
chiggins
2009 DGR Donator
User avatar
 
Posts: 751
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:51 am

Re: Holding onto an object

Postby Fritz » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:04 pm

More of a stability thing. If you can support yourself on something behind you, there would be better support?
I dunno. But it was answered by the rules master as okay.
FRITZ
Team Millennium
Play Smart. Keep it Simple. Throw MILLENNIUM.
#26702 ♦ CE Omega ♦ Omega SS ♦ QMS ♦ Q Sentinel ♦ CE JLS ♦ Q Polaris ♦ Q Astra ♦ QOLS ♦ QOLF ♦ Q Quasar ♦ CE Exp-1
Fritz
Naturally Athletic
User avatar
 
Posts: 4675
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Fruita, CO
Favorite Disc: QMS

Re: Holding onto an object

Postby Steady 26542 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:50 pm

Thanks Chuck! (and everyone else) :)
Image
Team MILLENNIUM
Team Gorilla Boy
Team Iron Lion
Steady 26542
2010 DGR Donator
User avatar
 
Posts: 1059
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:39 pm
Location: Quad Cities
Favorite Disc: Omega SS


Return to Rules Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests