Wraith vs Illusion vs whatever Discraft has vs others

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Postby garublador » Wed Feb 08, 2006 8:12 am

presidio hills wrote:i'm tripping out reading this thread.

i've been throwing the illusion for a month or so now and think it really isn't that overstable. i have a 169 in the S plastic and really think its comparison in stability is close to a champion beast (easy to flip, lots of turn, will probably fade). i usually only have about 300' of consistent golf d (with a pro starfire, dx eagle) but can get the illusion past that easily (if thrown right i'm hitting 350' :)). it flips easily then glides through its turn and fades very late. it's awsome for big D if you have enough room for the flip (it does not hold a straight line)... i also like it for low straight shots. this disc can be thrown very low to the ground with less power to go quite straight. it's also great for rollers (disc is cruisin' when it hits the ground). amazing disc! i believe it's WAY better than a CFR wraith.


It may just be me, but I haven't had good luck with the Illusion. If I throw it with a hyzer it stays on a hyzer and if I throw it with an anhyzer it holds the anhyzer line for a long time and then fades hard (which is how I keep losing them). The only time I could get a good throw out of it was when I would get it flat (which I cannot do consistantly) or throwing it with a hyzer into a headwind. I assume it's a combination of my inability to throw with enough speed and it's natural stability. I also never really got one to beat in at all. I had an S that got pretty banged up but still never had that cool, broken in feel to it's flight. I can throw a Spirit with an anhzyer and get a nice, tight S out of it and get good distance with predictability into a headwind so I'm sticking with that.

I wasn't all that impressed with the CFR Wraith either. I can't get it out any farther than any of my other high speed drivers (Avenger, Orion, Spirit), it wasn't especally straight or overstable, so it didn't really fit into my bag. I had to throw it with a bit of anhyzer to get it to fly straight and I'd rather throw an X Avenger or Orion with a hyzer to get the same effect. Again, the Spirit is more predictable for me into the wind with just as much D.

The Pro Wraith is still new to me and I'd like to see what it's like after I break it in some. If I can get it to the point where I can throw with a bit of a hyzer and have it flatten out I may like it, but from what I understand it's not a disc that handles a throw like that well. I'd like to get a D Venom and beat it in for fun, too, just to see what it's like. I doubt this will happen quickly, though. I really should be working on other parts of my game.

Right now I'm throwing a X Avenger for straight hyzer flips that fade, an Orion LS for straight hyzer flips that don't fade and anhyzers (perhaps a really beat X Avenger would work eventually), a Z Avenger for something kind of overstable, but not crazy and Spirits for my overstable needs.
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Postby Blake_T » Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:06 am

the illusion has come out of the mold in two diff ways.

the protos and some of the recent s (mostly the orange ones) have been domier and less overstable.

the flat ones have been the majority of the runs (and mostly white) and are overstable.

the domey ones have stability closer to a starfire-L or wraith, whereas the flat ones have stability closer to a venom.
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Postby Mark Brunner » Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:47 am

I had a proto yellow H plastic illusion @ 167g and it was the most overstable pig I have ever thrown. Compared to my friends white 166g Proto, that disc was flippy and went a long way...

Honeslty garublador, with the wraith, I find it has pretty much the same flight path as my orcs do when I hyzer flip it. I suppose if with a new wraith you cannot throw it like that out of the bag new then maybe it will not work the way you want later. But I throw max weight pro and star and have no problems with hyzer flips with them, with enough hyzer they flip flat and go a long way.
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Postby jiwaburst » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:10 am

Just want to second how extremely fast the venom is, it is sick fast. Really weird disc. It is the only thing I throw that takes a path where people go, "What the heck was that?"

This flight path is a combo of its speed and its lack of glide. A throw with this thing is on the ground 320 ft. away so quickly it is jarring. The lack of glide prevents it from being as far as some of the other ultra-drivers for me, but also means that along with its overstability there is some ability to play unique lines with it and count on the 40-50 ft of fade/flop at the end of a throw.

And also the Epic is a fast, fast disc. Great for extreme overhand shots. Unusable for much else though.
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Postby TexasOutlaw » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:29 am

Is the illusion the disc that is compared to the firebird or predator? After using the wizard and demon, I was excited about Gateway products. But, not even Gateway people agree about the characteristics of their discs.

I was thinking the problem was similar to what Discraft has: different colors/runs have different characteristics.
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Postby TexasOutlaw » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:32 am

asimo wrote:Did you guys read my questions or just start posting about Avengers... Oh wait, I guess I can see the answer to that myself.

Anyway, I would love to see what you guys think about my actual questions.



I guess I was mislead from the title of the thread. This is not a discussion of high speed drivers then. The whatever Discraft has must of thwarted my understanding.
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Postby Jwt4412 » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:35 am

Can somebody describe the throw or the flight path of these discs?

I maybe throwing them wrong or trying to do something with them that is wrong.

When I throw I will change the hyzer/anhyzer of the disc to basically throw straight and flat. I think I am "defeating" the disc. How far to the right or left of the target are you throwing these discs? What height? What angle?

Thanks in advance...
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Postby TexasOutlaw » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:51 am

Jwt4412 wrote:Can somebody describe the throw or the flight path of these discs?

I maybe throwing them wrong or trying to do something with them that is wrong.



I have the same problem; sometimes I have to get advice as to how to throw a particular disc. I started getting crazy d with my wraith when someone told me to "quit muscling it" and throw about 15 feet of the ground. Also, I was adviced to TRY and turn it over, which made no sense to me until I did it. If you turn it over, it comes back straight then fades left.
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Postby Jwt4412 » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:58 am

I get confused by the lingo...

Try using other words to decribe "turning the disc over"...

I have the power/strength... I have had people call it "viscious power" but my throws will lawn-dart to the left when I really throw hard about 190 feet out. My angles and target points are obviously wrong...
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Postby garublador » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:58 am

Mark Brunner wrote:Honeslty garublador, with the wraith, I find it has pretty much the same flight path as my orcs do when I hyzer flip it.


I've only thrown a Champion Orc and it is farily simiar to the Champion Wraith I've thrown. I can't flip the Orc up from a hyzer, either. Perhaps I should try the DX Orc sometime.
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Postby Jwt4412 » Wed Feb 08, 2006 10:59 am

What does a disc do when it has been "turned-over"?
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Postby Jwt4412 » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:00 am

Are "flip-up" and "turned-over" the same thing?
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Postby garublador » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:05 am

Jwt4412 wrote:Are "flip-up" and "turned-over" the same thing?


When I say "flip up" I mean throwing the disc with a hyzer angle and as the disc is flying the angle will decrease until the disc is parallel with the ground.

A disc that is "turned over" will start off either with a hyzer angle or flat and as the disc is flying will increase the amount of anhyzer angle the disc has (i.e. the disc will go right for a RHBH throw). Understable discs are easyier to flip up and turn over.
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Postby Jwt4412 » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:15 am

G,

When you want the disc to turn over what are you release and target points?

How high? How far left/right of the target?
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Postby garublador » Wed Feb 08, 2006 11:26 am

Jwt4412 wrote:Garublador,

When you want the disc to turn over what are you release and target points?

How high? How far left/right of the target?


If I have a straight shot to the target, I'll almost always try to throw a straight hyzer flip rather than an S curve. I'll aim a lilttle to the right of the target. How much to the right and how high I throw depends on the disc. Putters and midrange discs need more height to get the distance. Fast, wide rimmed drivers need to be thrown low so I can keep the nose down. The more a disc fades, the more to the right I'll need to aim.
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