Maxing out @ 300ft...

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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Wyno » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:11 pm

kudos for sure keltik, I'm not an art critic anyway :-)
I'll have to dare some comments:

Plant leg should be straghter, if you pivot on the heel at least?

I heedlessly postulate that 5 might be an ideal but if so, unattainable in real life ;-)
Image
from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOMbSi_-3-k
I might be wrong of course, but looks to me like this is as close to being squared up to the target as anyone I've seen and yet it's more like 30 degrees off?
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby black udder » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:33 pm

I think squaring up happens after the disc is gone but the arm is still out.

I believe that video session of Dan was a poor one from his feedback. I think he said things weren't going right but that he'd fixed his issue and done another one... of course, he was still throwing over 400', so... ya know... his "off" isn't the same as ours.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby keltik » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:07 pm

yeah i went through a couple of versions of this before i posted it. and one of the things Blake said to me was that the elbow stops coming forward and the forearm swings out before the shoulders turn past perpendicular. seems counterintuitive but i'm not going to argue much.

as far as #5 being an ideal i think it is one of things you can only catch at 5000fps.

and as far as the leg bends etc. I guess i just want to show exaggerations. and i haven't drawn a whole lot in the last 10 years. but it's just supposed to be a visual guide/generalization. This thread was intended for guys trying to break the 300 mark.

now i just need to get a swedish diagram in here. any suggestions on who to model for it?
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby black udder » Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:21 pm

any of those guys who throw the arm up. Heck, Des Reading almost does it. I think there's a lot of footage on Jesper.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:52 pm

yeah i went through a couple of versions of this before i posted it. and one of the things Blake said to me was that the elbow stops coming forward and the forearm swings out before the shoulders turn past perpendicular. seems counterintuitive but i'm not going to argue much.


it's not that the forearm releases completely before the shoulders open from 90 to facing up, it's that you aren't faced up when the forearm BEGINS to release.

static frames can only tell so much of the story, there's a limit to it, which is why i don't really think slow motion and frame by frame stuff are as useful as people think they are. it's nice to have some marks of position but people tend to forget that it's a PROCESS from moving from 1 position to the next and not just about those static frames. e.g. you could pick 1 frame later in each breakdown and still not tell the whole story.

there is a use for breakdowns, but remember, it's a flowing process. things happen because of other things. you end up in certain positions because of timing, motion, and other positions.

keltik did a pretty damn fine breakdown on some of the key spots. that picture of dan = #5 on his drawing. as for the plant leg, you'll find leg length, which part of the foot that is pivoted on, relative athleticism, run up direction/length, etc. will all play a factor into that. this is why i preach for people to formulate their own interpretations while integrating key concepts. everything will be unique but to achieve great success, several things need to be the same.

any of those guys who throw the arm up.


the reason why the off arm is prominent in swedish technique is that it serves a very specific purpose. grab a hockey stick (or any kind of stick) and act like you are going into a lefty slap shot and you'll see the parallels.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby MrScoopa » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:14 am

and one of the things Blake said to me was that the elbow stops coming forward and the forearm swings out before the shoulders turn past perpendicular. seems counterintuitive but i'm not going to argue much.


Doing that is what helped stuff start clicking. Before I was moving my shoulder joint and pulling back on the disc before release. I was rotating too quickly and never getting the forearm swing.

and as far as the leg bends etc. I guess i just want to show exaggerations.


A lot of this stuff is so subtle I miss it entirely. Just like strong-arming. If you watch someone throw it is hard to tell if they are using core rotation or their arm. I appreciate the exaggeration!
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby SkaBob » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:58 am

Blake_T wrote:disc golf throwing is the one inch punch.


I'm glad I'm not the only one that says this :D

I see so many people hulk-smashing the whole throw and getting out-driven by my masters age buddy that throws a 400 foot standstill.

Too few people know what the one inch punch is, sadly...
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby black udder » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:15 am

SkaBob wrote:
Blake_T wrote:disc golf throwing is the one inch punch.


I'm glad I'm not the only one that says this :D

I see so many people hulk-smashing the whole throw and getting out-driven by my masters age buddy that throws a 400 foot standstill.

Too few people know what the one inch punch is, sadly...


dude - you can't say "out-driven by my masters age buddy" and "that throws a 400 foot standstill" and expect it to mean anything other than that dude has got it together. Maybe "out-driven by my masters age buddy" and then it's a slap "oh, the old guy out drove you", but if he's throwing 400' from a standstill, I'd guess he's out driving a lot of folks regardless of their one inch punch knowledge :P

I do agree with the whole one inch punch though.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby JHern » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:38 pm

So, its like the punch in Kill Bill 2, eh? The coffin-breaking kind?
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Claytoon » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:31 pm

I actually googled 'one-inch punch' because of this...i'm definitely not bruce lee.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby MotoDj » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:57 am

i disagree with the one inch punch theory on the lines of - a one inch punch builds no momentum before the hit - but i could see the last 12 inches or so of the hit has the "explosion" of the one inch punch?? not sure if i worded that too well...

anyone see the show fight science? you can watch it on hulu.com
anyways, they have a great animated model of the punch.... they use the term "kinetic linking" leading to the cracking of the whip/hit
it would be great to have this the disc golf throw" mechanics modeled

anyways, check this out, round 4 minute mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfnGkV6qmTw

wish i had access to this kind of animation, i watched both episodes on hulu, they're pretty much the same, but they have these animated things throughout... i posted the first one i seen on youtube, i'm sure theres better out there
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:45 am

but i could see the last 12 inches or so of the hit has the "explosion" of the one inch punch?? not sure if i worded that too well...


correct. explosive acceleration late in the throw is needed to impart tremendous force on the disc. most people do this rather poorly. the majority of disc golfers peak in arm/disc velocity as the disc passes the center of the torso during the pull through and decelerate beyond that point.

the big snap throwers out there can throw > 400' with ~18" of disc motion.

the average player throws < 400' using ~4' of disc motion.

the same big snap thrower might add, say, 100' by extending the disc motion to 4'.

what you can draw from that is that the magic happens in the later part of the throw and those who do it well have much greater efficiency (and power potential) than those who do not.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby JHern » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:26 pm

Wow, I played 2 rounds of 18 today, and it was the first time I've played on this course where I could hit 350'+ shots on demand. The more I play, the more this is all starting to click for me personally. I've been focusing on stopping the torso as well as the elbow at around 90 degrees, and this motion has tremendous power that I can feel is available, but I've only begun to tap that deep reservoir. In any case, following the right-pec drill is going quite well, for me. I'm going to keep at it!

EDIT: To add a little more detail, I'm not sure I'm even fully stopping my torso rotation fully, I'll need to do a video to see for sure. But I am consciously slowing the opening of my shoulders right just before I get to facing about 90 degrees to the target. It is more of a relaxation in the middle of the motion than an active resistance to turning. I can feel the momentum of my arm and disc being transferred more strongly into the elbow chop.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby MrScoopa » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:04 pm

Everything for me is becoming more natural. Just a week ago it would take me 20-30 minutes to get the feeling of snap throwing back. My last trip out the first throw I had it, and had it for the next 1 1/2 I practiced. After that amount of time the only thing tired was my legs! I did well over a hundred throws. My accuracy is better. I can throw almost as far. Every time I go out I drive further while keeping the former accuracy.

Another cool thing is how "clean" the power is. Take this as an example: I have a 150g Roc that I call my strong arming or torque meter. That thing has sat in my car for the past year because I couldn't throw it without flipping it into a roller. The other day most of my discs were in another car so I threw it in the bag. I tried throwing it flat with my new form and to great surprise it went dead straight without flipping over. If I throw it hyzer it flips flat and stays flat. I'd guess around 200' 250' average with it. Some were longer ~300'. I guess that phenomenon was caused by the increased spin and less torque on the disc. Nonetheless awesome.

By the way I am throwing some slower old school stuff like Eclipses(beautiful hyzer flips :o), trackers, etc.. I love them!

There's my recent exploits. I plan on keep doing the standstill until I milk all the distance I can before adding a one-step. Hopefully that will be a loooong road :)
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Lithicon » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:34 pm

Nice to see everyone making progress!
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