Gays serving openly in the military

[sunspot]

Also people really need to stop comparing homosexuality to things that aren't the same at all like animals (stuffed or not), Children, and adultery.

You missed the point.

This is correct. I am Christian and I have no problem with homosexuality. It varies from person to person. I have been following this thread closely and think it has been kept mostly civil and is a wealth of information. Reasonable debate is healthy and I would like to see this thread get back on track.

Being a Christian, how do you justify it biblically?

[Frank Delicious]

Also people really need to stop comparing homosexuality to things that aren't the same at all like animals (stuffed or not), Children, and adultery.

You missed the point.

What is the point of comparing gays to people who break laws that hurt other people except to try and cast them in a negative light?

[sunspot]

There were few points that I was trying to bring up:

1. People justify their behavior regardless of what it is.

2. We all have sin even though it comes in various forms and has various consequences.

3. Not having standards leads to a slippery slope.

I didn't say or mean that homosexuality = predator/victim relationship.

All of these points are somewhat interrelated to the issue at hand.

[Frank Delicious]

Slippery slope is a fallacy, there is always a middle ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

[Star Shark]

You're implying that there's something inherently wrong with homosexuality. There isn't. This is what we have an issue with.

[riverboy]

This is correct. I am Christian and I have no problem with homosexuality. It varies from person to person. I have been following this thread closely and think it has been kept mostly civil and is a wealth of information. Reasonable debate is healthy and I would like to see this thread get back on track.

Being a Christian, how do you justify it biblically?

In my view I do not need to justify it biblically. The bible is not necessarily absolute. Like a society religion evolves and things that were once ridiculed are now accepted. Take for instance evolution. 50 years ago many thought this was blaspheme. Today most Christians have accepted evolution as part of God's design. Who is to say homosexuality is not something that will be accepted into religion?

[discspeed]

From Wikipedia:
Bigotry
A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

I take this to include people who believe the whole country/world should operate under their intolerant belief system.

I think keeping gays from openly serving in the military is an example of this. I also think discriminating and denying homosexuals their rights is as well. We are supposed to be a rational society, and religion is not rational rationale to define something as immoral. There has to be other reasons, such as it does harm to someone or is non-consensual. Once again, this is my opinion based on my belief systems. I do not expect others to share my belief systems, but I expect them to respect my right to have my own beliefs that are different from theirs.

[Roy]

But you're not respecting a persons right to be a homophobe in this situation, right?

I'm all for gay people to do whatever they want, but I also understand that there are people out there who will not like it. I'm not going to muzzle one side for the benfit of the other. I'm ok with a man wearing a dress to the mall, but I'm also ok
expecting that someone may laugh.

Basically I'm saying that a person has to adapt to what's going on around them. You cant expect others to adapt for you.

[Frank Delicious]

He should respect someone's right to discriminate?

[Beable]

But you're not respecting a persons right to be a homophobe in this situation, right?

I'm all for gay people to do whatever they want, but I also understand that there are people out there who will not like it. I'm not going to muzzle one side for the benfit of the other. I'm ok with a man wearing a dress to the mall, but I'm also ok
expecting that someone may laugh.

Basically I'm saying that a person has to adapt to what's going on around them. You cant expect others to adapt for you.

People can be homophobic all they want. It's not bigoted to call people out for being bigots, though. I see that a lot in arguments online and it is pretty nonsensical. The only person that I called a bigot, btw, was Rick Santorum. And I'll shout that from the rooftops. Good lord his book was incredible. And if sunspot's church wants to refuse their wedding ceremonies/blessings to gay couples, that's their right. It isn't their right to intrude on our secular government, though.

This is an important civil rights issue. Gay rights in general, I mean. It's not about some guy wearing a dress to a mall (which is not necessarily gay). I think a lot of people are removed from it. They don't associate with people who are openly gay. So they don't see what the real issues are. It's not about whether two gay dudes can have a party and play house. Gay dudes are already doing that. It's about what happens when one of the gay dudes is terminally ill. And then his partner can't make medical decisions for him because he's not protected in the way straight couples are protected. Or what happens when one of the gay dudes dies and his partner doesn't automatically inherit their residence. Or about how his partner can't get medical insurance through his work, just like all the straights can.

Because of these kind of problems, homosexuals are second class citizens in the US. They aren't afforded the same rights as straight people, and it hurts them in many ways. And it's damn convenient that the people who have the default preference get to act like they have the moral high ground. LMAO at "people will do anything to serve their pleasure". Guess he's just lucky that his pleasure is more mainstream.

[Roy]

He should respect someone's right to discriminate?

Correct. You can't discriminate against the discriminater or you're a hypocrite IMO.

Not to the point of being violent or anything like that... but you can't ask someone to bend their beliefs when you're not willing to bend your own. In our society I could be repulsed by anyone with the name Frank. It may not be rational or just, but you need to understand that each person is different and there may be people out there that dont want to be in the same room as a Frank.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a homphobe and I think it's unrational to be like that. But I do know that they exist and it's inherently American to think whatever it is you think. Skinheads and klansmen can march all they want. It's up to the individual to decide how they fell in their own hearts.

[Frank Delicious]

He should respect someone's right to discriminate?

Correct. You can't discriminate against the discriminater or you're a hypocrite IMO.

So I should be able to discriminate against blacks, women or Christians if I choose? Like I should be able to refuse to hire women for my company?

p.s. I fixed your can to can't, I assume that is what you meant to type or your argument makes no sense.

[discspeed]

But you're not respecting a persons right to be a homophobe in this situation, right?

Quite the contrary. If you read my post above I state that I respect an individuals right to believe what they choose, however I draw the line on an imposition of their beliefs on me or the rest of society (or in this case, homosexuals). Whose opinion should be more valid concerning the rights of homosexuals--homosexuals themselves, whose lives will be impacted greatly concerning the outcome, or those who do not even believe they exist (or have a right to), and have no personal stake in the outcome (It won't change their lives at all?). When I look at this battle I see one side as fighting for their rights and the other side just being bigoted(trying to impose their beliefs into the lives of others who have different beliefs) and hateful.

[sunspot]

Slippery slope is a fallacy, there is always a middle ground.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

That's true in some cases, but sometimes one doesn't have to go through the consequence of an action in order to see the result. In other words, we can sometimes see a result without going through the motions.

In my view I do not need to justify it biblically. The bible is not necessarily absolute.

I compare this to a surgeon who doesn't use surgical tools to operate on his patient. If a person claims to be a surgeon then they will use the required methods and tools to display their knowledge. If a person is a Christian, they will use the "tool" that God has given them (the Bible) to "dissect" what life and society throws at them.

Today most Christians have accepted evolution as part of God's design. Who is to say homosexuality is not something that will be accepted into religion?

Micro-evolution, yes. There is flexibility in DNA to represent different things of the same species. Dogs is a good example of this. Anyway, this is for another topic.

From Wikipedia:
Bigotry
A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

In some regard, we are all bigots. We all have cherished beliefs that we hold on to dearly that we will not budge on.

I think the key is being respectful. I can get along with someone and be friends with them but I can be in utter disagreement with their views and opinions.

Case in point, I use to work with someone who is gay. She and I got along great. I would always joke around with her and goof off with her. However, I didn't agree with her on homosexuality. I didn't or don't hate her. I try to show love and respect towards her, but at the same time, I can disagree with her about homosexuality.

You're implying that there's something inherently wrong with homosexuality. There isn't. This is what we have an issue with.

Hoping this gets things back on track:

http://www.mygenes.co.nz/Ch12.pdf

If sexuality is "fluid" then homosexuality is not a necessity but a mixture of different things that influence a person's decision that can ultimately change a person's persuasion from one behavior to another.

[SkaBob]

If anyone wants to use the Bible to say that gays shouldn't be in the military, let's get technical...the bible contains no commandments that say "thou shalt not boink a dude if thou are a dude"...

It does say "Thou shalt not kill."

So anyone arguing for the existence of a military at all is at odds with the bible.



OOOOOOOO do they get riled up when you point that out, though!