Gays serving openly in the military

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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Frank Delicious » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:03 pm

sunspot wrote:
Gay marriages have been doing much better at that than straight marriages, oddly enough.


I'm sure this could be debated. However, I think this the exception and not the rule. Someone may be good at one thing in their craft and be horrible at the entirety of the their craft. A chef may make good dessert, but may be a horrible chef.


I don't understand this analogy. Could you elaborate? specifically on how good gay marriages are the exception.


discspeed wrote: If certain churches/ministers do not want to participate in gay marriage, they don't have to. It shouldn't influence what is legal of not.


In countries where gay marriage is legalize (Canada), it is wrong to have a dissenting opinion because it's considered discriminatory. For a church to say that gay marriage is not the way God created us would be considered "hate"speech. I think this is a legitimate concern. Will people be fined or arrested for going against homosexuality if we where to head in such a direction?

Here's the problems that are argued against homosexuality:

1. There are no conclusive studies that point towards the "genetic" factor for homosexuality. Maybe certain dispositions, not necessary determinants like eye color, hair, etc.

2. The effect of the environment (culturally, socially, morally, etc) in the development of homosexuality in people. Especially in childhood and adolescence.

3. Homosexuals have become heterosexuals through therapy or changed desires. This shows a determined change.

4. What happens during a woman's pregnancy i.e, hormones, drink, smoke, defects, etc.

Another good link: http://www.narth.com/docs/080307Abbott_ ... rticle.pdf



Once again, I think it is bigoted to deny people rights...


Here's the thing, are we going to legalize something that is based on something other than the claim of genetics? If so, then were does it stop? How far are we willing to go in order that we don't deny peoples rights? Where do we say "No"? Do we base our decisions on certain behaviors or standards?
[/quote]

No matter how being homosexual happens, it's pretty wrong to discriminate against them.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby some call me...tim? » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:15 pm

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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby sunspot » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:04 pm

Frank Delicious wrote:
I don't understand this analogy. Could you elaborate? specifically on how good gay marriages are the exception.


http://www.marriagedebate.com/pdf/SSdivorcerisk.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/19/healt ... .html?_r=1



No matter how being homosexual happens, it's pretty wrong to discriminate against them.


When we tell people "No" to something is it wrong? Where do we draw the line?
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Frank Delicious » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:15 pm

sunspot wrote:When we tell people "No" to something is it wrong? Where do we draw the line?


yeah it is if the majority of people get told yes.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby sunspot » Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:54 pm

Frank Delicious wrote:
sunspot wrote:When we tell people "No" to something is it wrong? Where do we draw the line?


yeah it is if the majority of people get told yes.


Does this apply to those who speak out against homosexuality in other countries who are clearly in the minority? They are discriminated against by what they say and believe, religious or otherwise.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Frank Delicious » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:19 pm

sunspot wrote:
Frank Delicious wrote:
sunspot wrote:When we tell people "No" to something is it wrong? Where do we draw the line?


yeah it is if the majority of people get told yes.


Does this apply to those who speak out against homosexuality in other countries who are clearly in the minority? They are discriminated against by what they say and believe, religious or otherwise.


So gays should be denied rights in the US because in some other mystery county a person can't discriminate against gays?
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby sunspot » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:22 pm

Frank Delicious wrote:So gays should be denied rights in the US because in some other mystery county a person can't discriminate against gays?
There are several counties that discriminate against opposition. You should seem them during football season. :lol:

Canada and the UK have had problems with people speaking against homosexuality. It's considered a hate crime. I remember hearing about some people getting arrested in PA for witnessing to people at a gay rally.

http://www.narth.com/docs/PrivilegeofSp ... sen090.pdf

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... flets.html
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Timko » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:29 am

Sort of related...A Florida artist got married to a stranger as a comment on the social inequality regarding same sex marriages.

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2010/02/complete_strangers_married_in.php
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby discspeed » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:19 pm

Timko wrote:Sort of related...A Florida artist got married to a stranger as a comment on the social inequality regarding same sex marriages.

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2010/02/complete_strangers_married_in.php


Reading the blog comments at the bottom of that page made me appreciate the civility of our discussion here. Though I think that might be different if there were actual homosexuals involved in the debate here. We can discuss these things somewhat void of emotion as it does not directly affect our lives.

This issue has a lot of similarities with religious persecution. Imagine you were in a severe religious minority, like the state was Muslim or something. Imagine everything associated with Christianity was outlawed. Christians were accepted as long as they kept their beliefs hidden and accepted their outcast social status. Simply stating their beliefs would be considered heretical. This is the way it is in many Middle Eastern countries. This is intolerance. So is denying homosexuals their right to be open about who they are. This is why separation of Church and State is so important. No political decisions should be made based on religion. Outside of the perspective of religion, how is homosexuality wrong? If there is no answer to this, then there should be no legal constraints on the rights of homosexuals. There are common humanistic morals that transcend all religions and societies. These are what we must draw on to make law in a state where no one's individual religious beliefs are deemed the universal standard.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Frank Delicious » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:43 pm

sunspot wrote:
Frank Delicious wrote:So gays should be denied rights in the US because in some other mystery county a person can't discriminate against gays?
There are several counties that discriminate against opposition. You should seem them during football season. :lol:

Canada and the UK have had problems with people speaking against homosexuality. It's considered a hate crime. I remember hearing about some people getting arrested in PA for witnessing to people at a gay rally.

http://www.narth.com/docs/PrivilegeofSp ... sen090.pdf

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... flets.html


You didn't answer my question.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby riverboy » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:53 pm

discspeed wrote:
Timko wrote:Sort of related...A Florida artist got married to a stranger as a comment on the social inequality regarding same sex marriages.

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2010/02/complete_strangers_married_in.php


Reading the blog comments at the bottom of that page made me appreciate the civility of our discussion here.

I agree completely. It also is nice that people here aren't afraid to at least put up a compelling argument for their views.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Beable » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:38 pm

discspeed wrote:Reading the blog comments at the bottom of that page made me appreciate the civility of our discussion here. Though I think that might be different if there were actual homosexuals involved in the debate here. We can discuss these things somewhat void of emotion as it does not directly affect our lives.


Yep. I have a hard time being civil about this topic, due to the points I raised on page 11. I have many gay relatives and they are oppressed. Not much point in arguing about it with people whose objections are based in religion. You can convince people who have never really thought about why they object, though. There is no logical, compassionate reason to deny gay civil rights, so logic can win the day there.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby sunspot » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:38 pm

discspeed wrote:This issue has a lot of similarities with religious persecution. Imagine you were in a severe religious minority, like the state was Muslim or something. Imagine everything associated with Christianity was outlawed. Christians were accepted as long as they kept their beliefs hidden and accepted their outcast social status. Simply stating their beliefs would be considered heretical. This is the way it is in many Middle Eastern countries. This is intolerance.



In religion the broad of the brush is significantly greater than that of sexuality in people. In those countries, they are not going against the sexual preference of a person, but the very soul of a person. The matters of the soul are weightier than the sexual preference of someone. Basically, that kind of persecution is far worse than what is deemed "sexual" persecution.

Speaking of persecution, people die for having different religious beliefs in countries like the Middle East and Africa. Homosexuals aren't rounded up en mass and executed for what they do in America. There is a significant difference between the two.

Also, beliefs may be considered heretical in a threaten ideology, but they have to be tested to see if they are true or not. In our country we have and will continue to test the validity of homosexuality to see if it's genetic. So far, signs point in the other direction.

There are some things that need to be answered concerning homosexuality:

1. What benefit will it bring to society?

2. What purpose does it serve?

3. Is it natural?




So is denying homosexuals their right to be open about who they are.


I'll ask this question again, where do we draw the line with those that are "who they are" ? There may be a incestuous relationship between a brother and sister both consenting to it, should we say "no" to them?



Outside of the perspective of religion, how is homosexuality wrong?


I have made mention of my point of view as a Christian, but I didn't rely solely on quoting the Bible. In other words, there has been other scientific articles that I have given and quoted from that deal with the issue.

Aside from that, why is it bad to come from a religious standpoint?

I'm not trying to sound harsh with this next point, I'm just trying to tackle your question with a different approach. It may seem cold and mean, but I'm not trying to be that way. I'm just elucidating a point.

From an evolutionary standpoint, homosexuals are considered a weak link. They are unable to reproduce passing on their traits to the next generation. If anything, their dna could be considered a bad mutation causing them to be attracted to the same sex. On this point we can't pass it off as necessary or normal. From this perspective, if we legalize same-sex marriage, we are suggesting these marriages as a viable means to preserve our species but, in reality, we are glossing over the real truth--- the extinction of certain group of people based on the inability to pass on their traits to the next generation. Also, we delude ourselves with the notion that it will make a difference and are being fair by allowing such a thing to happen. We should be honest about the conclusions, not make people feel good about themselves and their projected outcome.



There are common humanistic morals that transcend all religions and societies. These are what we must draw on to make law in a state where no one's individual religious beliefs are deemed the universal standard.


Really? Which ones?

Frank Delicious wrote:
You didn't answer my question.




I don't think it's wrong to say "no" to someone or a group of people. There is a difference between standards and discrimination. I look at discrimination as something that people do to another people because they "are" something. People discriminate against people who "are" old, young, black, white, male, female, handicap. These are things that people "are". Sexuality (heterosexuality and homosexuality) is something that people actively "do". Sex, people actively engage in it. You won't see someone actively engaging in being old, young, black, white, male, female, etc. They simply "are". This is the biological side.

To have standards on something that people "do" is necessary. If we don't have standards on things that people "do" then all behavior would be permissible. Murder, greed, selfishness, rape, lying, stealing, things of this nature would be unchecked. This is the behavioral side.

So, people who "are" something are biologically that way (mostly-- becoming handicap later in life) while people who "do" something are behaving that way. Behaviors can shift, biological ones can't.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Leopard » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:34 pm

:x :cry:
Last edited by Leopard on Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gays serving openly in the military

Postby Frank Delicious » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:12 pm

"Love thy Neighbor*" - God


*except if he is gay, black, non-christian, or really anything that isn't a white protestant male
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