Maxing out @ 300ft...

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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby keltik » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:41 pm

Parks wrote:
Quick timing question: I get that you tighten up your forearm, wrist and grip at position 5 in Keltik's drawing (right? seems to work for me). Basically the instant before the hit.

However, I don't know when to tense up and put power into the elbow/upper arm. I'm thinking position 3. I'm not sure if this is part of what stops the elbow, a result of it, or unrelated.

Or does the upper arm get tensed up later, like right before tightening up the forearm at either position 5 or somewhere between 4 and 5?


Any comment on this, Blake or Beato?


from my conversations and readings with Blake et al, it was my understanding that the hit actually came between pictures 3 & 4 (or was it 4 & 5?) and 5 & 6 were just follow through "positions". It's always been my understanding that you don't ever really use any power in the upper arm. you just use minor tension to move the disc into place or what have you.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby keltik » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:47 pm

Follow up to the above post:

last night I had a brain melting phone call with Blake_T (a very interesting and personable guy on the phone). we went over the diagram I made along with Russian history, regional dietetic legacy, brain neuron development, and guitar theory.

so on to the diagram:

1. the weight of the torso needs to be over the back leg. this "position" is when you plant the front foot at the end of the X-step. It is extremely important that your nipples are facing between 150 & 180° away from the target. where you reach back with your arm is all preference. but it is better to reach back to a place where it is easiest to keep the disc close to the chest.

2. just like before hips are turning. this is the first turning element of the throw.

1 -> 2 this transfer is all feet legs and hips. everything with the arm/hand is just a guide or a passive control.
2 -> 3 is all shoulder turn but you need to start your pull at the end of "3"

1-> 3 all of the upper body movement is incidental or automatic resulting from the hip/foot movement this is also the start of the weight transfer

3 -> 4 the weight of the chest should be moving toward the front foot. the skateboard kick is not really a hard kick but it is an easy way to get the center of mass moving around to the front. also the front foot should stop rotation at 90° +/- to the target.

4 -> 5 is the proverbial Hit. the elbow stops moving toward the target and starts moving to the right (if you are a righty). This movement allows the forearm to release the wrist. also during this movement the elbow should stay between 120 & 160° (180° being a fully straightened/extended).

5 -> 6 is the follow through and the foot is now allowed to rotate towards the target. personally i try to do it on my heel for physiological reasons.

3 -> 5 is the "Power Zone" meaning that the arm is actively moving and that it is accelerating the disc.

i still think the best thing Blake said in that 3 hour phone conversation was this: FOCUS ON THE DISC

everything else, these articles/threads, diagrams what have you are just general guidelines and basically food for thought. you have to put all these things into practice and adjust slightly for whatever physiological anomaly you suffer from. I myself have a wingspan that is 4" longer than my height and thusly i can't straighten my arm/elbow without my forearm twisting slightly.

everything i'm doing here is trying to get lower powered players into the correct motions. the work from the likes of Bradley Walker and others is for making the next step into BIG D.
Last edited by keltik on Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby black udder » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:37 pm

good write-up.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Lithicon » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:22 am

Yeah, Cheers Keltik. I was debating about doing something like that, but didn't have the time. And, didn't want to really bother Blake to see if I was correctly explaining it.

But, I concur about the conversations with Blake, I have yet to call him and I'm not sure I want to. We've have some lengthy conversations about the most random shit. It's amazing, and he says he's not ADHD, and well that's one thing we discussed too. LAWLZ! :lol:
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby bcsst26 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:44 pm

keltik wrote:eh what the hell....I cooked this up this morning with help from the Grand Yoda himself (Blake)
it's a diagram of the American style swing. i broke it down into six different positions.

Image

1. turn the hips
2. turn the shoulders to perpendicular to the target & slide the disc to right pec area
3. stop the elbow and begin forearm rotation
4. skateboard kick the back leg & allow the heel to pivot
5. rotate shoulders and allow weight to come forward
6. follow through

I now accept all complaints and rotten tomatoes.

Follow up to the above post:

last night I had a brain melting phone call with Blake_T (a very interesting and personable guy on the phone). we went over the diagram I made along with Russian history, regional dietetic legacy, brain neuron development, and guitar theory.

so on to the diagram:

1. the weight of the torso needs to be over the back leg. this "position" is when you plant the front foot at the end of the X-step. It is extremely important that your nipples are facing between 150 & 180° away from the target. where you reach back with your arm is all preference. but it is better to reach back to a place where it is easiest to keep the disc close to the chest.

2. just like before hips are turning. this is the first turning element of the throw.

1 -> 2 this transfer is all feet legs and hips. everything with the arm/hand is just a guide or a passive control.
2 -> 3 is all shoulder turn but you need to start your pull at the end of "3"

1-> 3 all of the upper body movement is incidental or automatic resulting from the hip/foot movement this is also the start of the weight transfer

3 -> 4 the weight of the chest should be moving toward the front foot. the skateboard kick is not really a hard kick but it is an easy way to get the center of mass moving around to the front. also the front foot should stop rotation at 90° +/- to the target.

4 -> 5 is the proverbial Hit. the elbow stops moving toward the target and starts moving to the right (if you are a righty). This movement allows the forearm to release the wrist. also during this movement the elbow should stay between 120 & 160° (180° being a fully straightened/extended).

5 -> 6 is the follow through and the foot is not allowed to rotate towards the target. personally i try to do it on my heel for physiological reasons.

3 -> 5 is the "Power Zone" meaning that the arm is actively moving and that it is accelerating the disc.

i still think the best thing Blake said in that 3 hour phone conversation was this: FOCUS ON THE DISC

everything else, these articles/threads, diagrams what have you are just general guidelines and basically food for thought. you have to put all these things into practice and adjust slightly for whatever physiological anomaly you suffer from. I myself have a wingspan that is 4" longer than my height and thusly i can't straighten my arm/elbow without my forearm twisting slightly.

everything i'm doing here is trying to get lower powered players into the correct motions. the work from the likes of Bradley Walker and others is for making the next step into BIG D.



Here put the two together for ya. I couldn't go back and forth. Good write up.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby keltik » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:53 pm

thanks guys

good copy edit there bcsst26. hadn't seen you around a lot lately but I do remember that you are a big student of form also.

I think Blake's phone conversations are worth it. now I need to remember everything he told me about putting so I can add that to the short arm apex pitch putting.

I think I also need to make a short comic about throwing a little red wagon off a cliff.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby mark12b » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:33 pm

5 -> 6 is the follow through and the foot is not allowed to rotate towards the target. personally i try to do it on my heel for physiological reasons.

i believe this should be "5 -> 6 is the follow through and the foot is now allowed to rotate..."

and, thanks for the followup, this is a great thread. the stuff about body positions *allowing* things to happen correctly is making me look at my throw differently for sure..
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby keltik » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:00 pm

yes Mark you are correct. it should be now able to turn/pivot.

yes kids even the DGR grammar nazi can stumble.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby masterbeato » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:06 pm

reading all this brings me back to when i struggled with this stuff. was not very fun, just forced myself into doing it because i knew in my mind from what i felt, and what i felt in my heart, i knew i would be improving my game in the long run by a lot.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Monocacy » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:12 pm

Keltik and Blake, thank you for putting this together. Matching description and illustration makes the timing so much clearer. I can't wait to try this out. I tried throwing putters a few times today but griplocked a throw just as my arm was warming up, and wading through a soggy snowdrift in my work shoes ended the practice session prematurely.

Melt, damned snow! I have new techniques to try and new plastic that needs to be thrown, but ice bowls are getting canceled and security kicked me out of the open parking lot where I was practicing. How far south of Maryland must one travel to escape snow cover? :x

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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby keltik » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:38 pm

Monocacy wrote:Keltik and Blake, thank you for putting this together. Matching description and illustration makes the timing so much clearer. I can't wait to try this out. I tried throwing putters a few times today but griplocked a throw just as my arm was warming up, and wading through a soggy snowdrift in my work shoes ended the practice session prematurely.

Melt, damned snow! I have new techniques to try and new plastic that needs to be thrown, but ice bowls are getting canceled and security kicked me out of the open parking lot where I was practicing. How far south of Maryland must one travel to escape snow cover? :x

(ranting while searching for duct tape and brightly-colored ribbon)


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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Mad Scientist » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:25 am

This thread appeals to me, since my drives max out under 300' - they gain altitude, stall, and fade hard to the left.

I'm slowly reading through all the posts in this thread, but in the meantime - what disc(s) would be a good canidate to use while practicing these techniques to break 300'?
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby Blake_T » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:30 am

This thread appeals to me, since my drives max out under 300' - they gain altitude, stall, and fade hard to the left.


this is indicative of nose up. fixing this can be practiced with any disc.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby bcsst26 » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:25 pm

keltik wrote:thanks guys

good copy edit there bcsst26. hadn't seen you around a lot lately but I do remember that you are a big student of form also.

I think Blake's phone conversations are worth it. now I need to remember everything he told me about putting so I can add that to the short arm apex pitch putting.

I think I also need to make a short comic about throwing a little red wagon off a cliff.


Yeah I have been digging this thread. The problem is I haven't thrown probably since Nov. Between getting dark to early,kids, and the never ending snow I haven't made it out. I still read everything and try the indoor stuff but without actually throwing I really do not have many comments. This is some of the best discussion though that I have seen for some time. Hopefully this long layoff will help me forget strong arming it and change things right this time.

Here is a quick question. I think I have it down how to stop the elbow and have your arm chop. My question is that when this chopping starts I feel like my wrist opens up to quick. Of course no throwing to verify anything but do you guys concentrate on keeping your hand on the opposite side of the disc or do you just let it happen.
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Re: Maxing out @ 300ft...

Postby keltik » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:08 pm

bcsst26 wrote:Here is a quick question. I think I have it down how to stop the elbow and have your arm chop. My question is that when this chopping starts I feel like my wrist opens up to quick. Of course no throwing to verify anything but do you guys concentrate on keeping your hand on the opposite side of the disc or do you just let it happen.


I just let it happen. that's just me. once you get going full speed with a disc in your hand the timing will fall closer into place, I suspect. I too have cabin fever and want to get out and throw. and yes i'm a pussy when it comes to playing in the cold and snow etc.
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