Gays serving openly in the military

[Frank Delicious]

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. (except gays and minorities)" Luke 3:16

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But feel free to hate on gays." Luke 10:25-28

[sunspot]

hmm, i never thought about the inferior mutated genes part ... it would be wrong to let "people" like that be happy in the same ways that normal people are allowed to be happy.

The perspective that I was coming from when I mentioned that was from a evolutionary standpoint. I don't normally take that stance. The reason I did was because Discspeed was looking for another perspective. I opted to give one.

I'm not callous like that. That position in it's truest form is and it's not based on any Biblical mandate. It is a simple form of survival of the fittest.

i mean, if they can decide to have this genetic defect, maybe we should kill them?
i've not heard a good reason for them to exist, and i agree with sunspot that they owe me an explanation if they want rights like real humans.

Kill them? Please. I've never insinuated that nor do I commend it. FYI, most research shows it's not genetic, so the whole "genetic defect" is not really correct.

c'mon gays! decide to be normal-DNA'd like us and maybe we'll let you in on the good life

Here is an earlier article that I posted on the topic http://www.narth.com/docs/080307Abbott_ ... rticle.pdf

Here's an article on re-orientation http://www.narth.com/docs/evidencefound.html

Change is possible. It has and does happen.

*incredibly* ignorant, hateful thinking ... you honestly think a loving Christ would agree with that? this feels Christian to you? there's a loving and forgiving God who you worship, and in His name you would deny your brothers and sisters the God-given right to *try* and live in peace and happiness? *bullshit*.

God is love. Those are the exact words in 1 John. God is a forgiving. What does God forgive us of?

this is the same master-race evil that ties itself to the church time and again ... Christ wants inferior Jews treated like animals ... Christ wants inferior Negroes treated like animals ... God wants inferior Americans treated like animals ... God hates a lot of His little children, doesn't He?

I hope you don't think I think like this. If so, it's a horrible caricature of myself but, more importantly Christ.

at some point you'll realize that the Christian church was taken over by Satan long, long ago. there's no mental gymnastics to the word of God, it is LOVE. there is one word of God. the rest are the words of man -- the fallen, hateful, ashamed man. and that's what's in your heart, not the word of God. you're a worshipper of the Devil, and you know your scripture well.

When was it taken over by Satan? What is love? More specifically, what is your definition of love?

go on with your beliefs, but don't confuse them with Christian morals, logic, or Love. it is pure Hate and not a thing beyond.

demon, i rebuke you!

I think it's sad that you think I hate gays because I disagree with their lifestyle. How many people do we disagree with and still get along with? A lot. I understand that I have to come in here and present a good point of view in order to be taken serious.

If I were to take a negative tone people wouldn't take my point seriously. I've refrain from name calling. I've tried to be on point with things. It seems that every time I make my case known I'm called a bigot. So, this is where we are at, name calling?

"Love thy Neighbor*" - God


*except if he is gay, black, non-christian, or really anything that isn't a white protestant male

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. (except gays and minorities)" Luke 3:16

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But feel free to hate on gays." Luke 10:25-28

Speaking of those commandments that you mentioned, do you that Jesus was referring to the 10 commandments in that context? Do we, in our own flesh, live up to those standards? I'm not talking about homosexuality. I'm talking about ourselves, myself included. Do we live up to those standards?
Go through the 10 commandments and see which ones you have kept.

Exodus 20: 3-17

"You shall have no other gods before me.

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

"You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.

"You shall not murder.

"You shall not commit adultery.

"You shall not steal.

"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

"You shall not covet your neighbor’s house;you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s."

After reading those, how many have we kept? Broken?

Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Romans 6: 23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 5:8 "but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

Romans 10: 8-12 "But what does it say?"The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."

[Frank Delicious]

Speaking of those commandments that you mentioned, do you that Jesus was referring to the 10 commandments in that context? Do we, in our own flesh, live up to those standards? I'm not talking about homosexuality. I'm talking about ourselves, myself included. Do we live up to those standards?
Go through the 10 commandments and see which ones you have kept.

So you might as well discriminate against gays since you are already a sinner?

No one is perfect but it is pretty easy not to hate on a particular group of people. Admitting your sin and improving yourself is pretty christian.

[Trey133]

In all seriousness,

Neil Patrick Harris is gay, and he is my non post humus idol.

Case closed.

[Frank Delicious]

In all seriousness,

Neil Patrick Harris is gay, and he is my non post humus idol.

Case closed.

You only admire him after you don't eat humus?

[Beable]

Wait a tick. NPH is gay!? He just is a specialist at acting like a womanizing jerk? Talented guy.

[SkaBob]

FYI, most research shows it's not genetic, so the whole "genetic defect" is not really correct.

I've posted time and time again in this thread and others that there are many studies showing homosexuality among hundreds or thousands of other species on this planet. Unless you want to concede that all animals are rational, thinking, sentient beings with free will just like humans, and that they all somehow learned this behavior from observing homosexual humans, it's pretty straight forwardly obvious that there is a genetic or natural component to it.

If you want a bunch of links on the subject, I pasted a few about ninety-eleven pages back.

Don't ever get confused into thinking that just because a scientist says something, it's unbiased and factual.

There are literatlly hundreds of studies by computer scientists that say Windows is faster, more secure and more stable than Linux and Mac OS. In reality, we all know that's not true, but you can pay a scientist to say anything you want.

Outside of computer science, there's cold fusion. The guy who presented his data and facts on his research is still certain that he's right, but he's widely regarded among the rest of the scientific community as being a bit of a crackpot.

There are many, many more examples of research, studies and science that show that scientists can not only be wrong by accident, but out of a desire to be published, and paid.

Don't ever take the word of man for granted.

God may not speak in words anymore, but his creations actions speak loudly, and his creations are having mad amounts of gay sex.

[sunspot]

So you might as well discriminate against gays since you are already a sinner?

Here's the problem, people are trying to pass homosexuality off as normal i.e, genetic. There are other factors that are in play, which I've been trying to point out. If people were trying to pass off something else like lying as normal, then I would come out against that. The difference is that a lot of people see it as a normative behavior and that we people should redefine terms to accommodate a particular lifestyle.

I'll ask it again, where do we draw the line? Where do we say 'no'?

I like to hear an answer to my question.

I do think that God has designed marriage to between one man and one woman. I think this is the optimum method for raising children, perpetuating our human race, having the best of both worlds, unity in diversity, and as Erwin Lutzer puts it it is " to mirror God" because "Both genders bear the image of God, though they reflect God in different ways." I believe when people want a homosexual marriage they don't opt for the optimum method, there is something a miss. Why? Well, men and women have been created differently for different roles to serve each other.

In a homosexual relationship there are two roles filled into one, rather than having two roles split up equally. That is, two men are fulfilling the role of the man and the two woman are fulfilling the role of a woman.

I believe to compensate for this one partner takes the role of the opposite sex. What I find fascinating about it is that one partner will play the role of the opposite sex when they are not attracted to the opposite sex. Why is that?

I think science as strengthen my overall point about God not creating that kind of relationship to be the optimum relationship. That is, homosexuals aren't born that way, it's through several factors that lead up to a particular decision. But remember, it does require a decision.

No one is perfect but it is pretty easy not to hate on a particular group of people. Admitting your sin and improving yourself is pretty christian.

I love my brother regardless of his lifestyle of alcoholism and addiction to prescription drugs. Even during the whole time of my awareness of his lifestyle, I'm full aware of my own sin and the grace and mercy that God has given me in Christ to move forward where I don't say "yes" to the temptation of my sin and be obedient to him.

I can still look at my brother with compassion, mercy, and love knowing that what he is doing is wrong and still tell him that it's wrong. Love is not a rubber stamp of approval to encourage every sort of behavior. Love is also the capability to say 'no' to someone or something about someone. To have an idea that love means "what ever makes you happy" is not the right idea of love. Sometimes "whatever makes us happy" isn't the best for us. Love is the ability to say "no" when someone wants to say "yes".

When people accuse me of hate because of my stance they truly don't know where I'm coming from.

[sunspot]

FYI, most research shows it's not genetic, so the whole "genetic defect" is not really correct.

I've posted time and time again in this thread and others that there are many studies showing homosexuality among hundreds or thousands of other species on this planet. Unless you want to concede that all animals are rational, thinking, sentient beings with free will just like humans, and that they all somehow learned this behavior from observing homosexual humans, it's pretty straight forwardly obvious that there is a genetic or natural component to it.

In the articles there wasn't anything conclusive to suggest genetic links. Also, it was mentioned that animals might have done it for pleasure which doesn't conclude anything whether it's genetic or not. The best study scientists can do is on humans. So far, other factors have more weight behind the than the genetic factor.

There are many, many more examples of research, studies and science that show that scientists can not only be wrong by accident, but out of a desire to be published, and paid.

This is true. Ironically, there have been research and studies that have had fatal flaws due to particular motive. There have been studies by researchers that declared that homosexuality is genetic, but only later was it clarified to be otherwise. I think the media has a large part in grabbing sensational stories and running with them to fit their particular view.

[Frank Delicious]

Here's the problem, people are trying to pass homosexuality off as normal i.e, genetic. There are other factors that are in play, which I've been trying to point out. If people were trying to pass off something else like lying as normal, then I would come out against that. The difference is that a lot of people see it as a normative behavior and that we people should redefine terms to accommodate a particular lifestyle.

I don't really care if it is genetic or not, I just know that gays are denied rights that many other people enjoy and the only reason they are denied those rights is because they are sexually attracted to a person of the same sex. Their "crime" is something that doesn't hurt anyone and at best offends some people's sense of morality. They should not be denied rights because of this.

I'll ask it again, where do we draw the line? Where do we say 'no'?

I like to hear an answer to my question.

We draw the line where people who are doing nothing wrong and not hurting anyone get denied rights. If I was a gay person and my life partner was in an accident and I was denied the right to go into the hospital room with them and wasn't allowed to decide how they would be treated I would be pretty hurt and angry and would work hard to gain those rights. You are a Christian, if you enlisted in the military (to get kinda back on track) how would you feel if you had to hide that part of you? I would bet it wouldn't feel too good having to act like something you are not, listening to others talk badly about Christians in front of you, disparaging them, using it as an insult, and knowing that if you ever spoke up and said "hey guys, lay off the Christians. You know I am one, we are not all bad" you would be kicked out of the military and lose all your benefits.

[Leopard]

[sunspot]

I don't really care if it is genetic or not, I just know that gays are denied rights that many other people enjoy and the only reason they are denied those rights is because they are sexually attracted to a person of the same sex. Their "crime" is something that doesn't hurt anyone and at best offends some people's sense of morality. They should not be denied rights because of this.

What about polygamists rights?
What about those who are in a incestuous relationship? What about their rights?
What about those who love their animals?

Most importantly, what about the rights of those that they are going against?

In terms of discrimination, you said that the when the minority tells the majority that something is wrong then it's wrong. What about the majority of those who were against the minority in Nazi Germany? For all those who think otherwise, I'm not suggesting homosexuals are Nazis. I'm pointing out the minority vs. majority and when each is wrong. Nazi Germany was obviously wrong even though they were the minority compared to the rest of the world. Basically, minority vs. majority does fall short sometimes.

In the end, whether you are meaning to or not, you are pitting one standard against another and calling it discriminatory to go against your particular standard. Really, it's double standard. What is happening is that we are replacing one particular standard for another and calling it even when in fact there is a difference.

At some point we "discriminate" against somebody even if the person who participates in a certain act doesn't hurt anybody. This shows that we do have standards and we draw the lines somewhere.

An ethical, not necessary religious approach to same sex marriage: http://www.marriageinstitute.ca/images/somerville.pdf

We draw the line where people who are doing nothing wrong and not hurting anyone get denied rights.

http://www.narth.com/docs/mythgene.html

Here's an excerpt on your point


Finally, revisionists often claim that both homosexual behavior and the homosexual lifestyle are completely harmless to the homosexual and to society at large. Activists pushing this perspective often point to the 1973 decision of the APA that removed homosexuality from the official diagnostic manual of mental disorders as support for their position. Three recent papers published in the peer-reviewed and well-respected journal, Archives of General Psychiatry, have now challenged this decision. In the first study, Herrell et al. used a powerful technique, the co-twin control method to look at the psychological health of homosexual men. [20] They studied 103 middle-aged male-male twin pairs where one brother reported male sex partners after age 18 years while the other did not. The study concluded that on average, male homosexuals were 5 times more likely to show suicide-related behavior or thoughts than their heterosexual counterparts. Significantly, most of the findings were valid even after the researchers accounted for the influence of substance abuse and depressive symptoms other than suicidality. The second study followed a large New Zealand group from birth to their early twenties. [21] Corroborating the first study, this independent report showed a significant increase of depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance abuse and thoughts about suicide among those who were homosexually active. As one scientist commentator has pointed out, these two studies "contain arguably the best published data on the association between homosexuality and psychopathology, and both converge on the same unhappy conclusion: homosexual people are at a substantially higher risk for some forms of emotional problems, including suicidality, major depression, and anxiety disorder." [22] Finally, the third and most recent paper showed that there was an increase in mental health problems associated with homosexual persons in the Netherlands. [23] Remarkably, HIV status was not a factor.

The authors of this study suggested that pressure from society may be a significant cause for the higher incidence of mental health problems found in homosexual persons. As one commentator has pointed out, however, this is not a persuasive argument because the observed differences in mental health status between homosexuals and heterosexuals are just as great in the Netherlands and in New Zealand, two societies which are relatively more tolerant of homosexuality, as they are in the United States, a society which is relatively not as tolerant. [24] If social ostracism is indeed a significant factor in influencing the mental health status of homosexual persons, then one would expect to see differences among societies with varying tolerances to homosexuality.

You are a Christian, if you enlisted in the military (to get kinda back on track) how would you feel if you had to hide that part of you? I would bet it wouldn't feel too good having to act like something you are not, listening to others talk badly about Christians in front of you, disparaging them, using it as an insult, and knowing that if you ever spoke up and said "hey guys, lay off the Christians. You know I am one, we are not all bad" you would be kicked out of the military and lose all your benefits.

People make fun of Christians all the time in our culture, so that wouldn't be anything new to me. The fact that I'm not able to say anything is going to hurt my feelings at all. Looking at countries like China and our history, Christians have been harshly persecuted. If I was kicked out of the military then so be it. It might bother me at first, but at the end of it of the ordeal, I know Who's care I'm truly in.

[sunspot]

This is ALL that it is, two simple questions:

Are gays people?
Do people deserve rights?

Are polygamists people?
Do the deserve rights?

The list can go on.


Not all applicants that send their resume in for a job get hired. Is this discrimination?

[Trey133]

When I don't get my humus in the morning... I am the power bottom for Neil Patrick Harris.

Yea it shocked me too to find out that he was gay, because his character's just really make me think otherwise ya know? He is still my idol.

[Frank Delicious]

People make fun of Christians all the time in our culture, so that wouldn't be anything new to me. The fact that I'm not able to say anything is going to hurt my feelings at all. Looking at countries like China and our history, Christians have been harshly persecuted. If I was kicked out of the military then so be it. It might bother me at first, but at the end of it of the ordeal, I know Who's care I'm truly in.

I have problems believing you wouldn't feel differently if you were in the minority. It is easy for us to say as privileged white christian males to say "hey I wouldn't feel bad to be in that minority's position" but really how can you say that. You are talking from a position knowing that you will always be in the majority in this country for your whole lifetime.

Also it is hard for me to take you seriously when you compare homosexuals to bestiality lovers and for you to imply that Nazis were in the minority when in fact, they were the majority. Hitler was quite popular and the German people loved him.

Finally, revisionists often claim that both Christian behavior and the Christian lifestyle are completely harmless to the Christians and to society at large. Activists pushing this perspective often point to the 1973 decision of the APA that removed Christianity from the official diagnostic manual of mental disorders as support for their position. Three recent papers published in the peer-reviewed and well-respected journal, Archives of General Psychiatry, have now challenged this decision. In the first study, Herrell et al. used a powerful technique, the co-twin control method to look at the psychological health of Christian men. [20] They studied 103 middle-aged male-male twin pairs where one brother reported Christian after age 18 years while the other did not. The study concluded that on average, male Christians were 5 times more likely to show suicide-related behavior or thoughts than their non-Christian counterparts. Significantly, most of the findings were valid even after the researchers accounted for the influence of substance abuse and depressive symptoms other than suicidality. The second study followed a large New Zealand group from birth to their early twenties. [21] Corroborating the first study, this independent report showed a significant increase of depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance abuse and thoughts about suicide among those who were Actively Christian. As one scientist commentator has pointed out, these two studies "contain arguably the best published data on the association between Christianity and psychopathology, and both converge on the same unhappy conclusion: Christian people are at a substantially higher risk for some forms of emotional problems, including suicidality, major depression, and anxiety disorder." [22] Finally, the third and most recent paper showed that there was an increase in mental health problems associated with Christian persons in the Netherlands. [23] Remarkably, HIV status was not a factor.

The authors of this study suggested that pressure from society may be a significant cause for the higher incidence of mental health problems found in Christian persons. As one commentator has pointed out, however, this is not a persuasive argument because the observed differences in mental health status between Christians and non-Christians are just as great in the Netherlands and in New Zealand, two societies which are relatively more tolerant of Christians, as they are in the United States, a society which is relatively not as tolerant. [24] If social ostracism is indeed a significant factor in influencing the mental health status of Christians persons, then one would expect to see differences among societies with varying tolerances to Christianity.