Renamed: Help cure my anny-itis

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Renamed: Help cure my anny-itis

Postby josser » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:19 am

March 19 edit: When this was shot I was experiencing some mild problems with everything I was trying to throw flat coming out anny and it has only gotten worse. I was reading this thread and came across Blake saying: "if it comes out anny you are shifting the plane to anhyzer, most likely caused by your elbow not stopping and/or having your elbow above the disc while attempting a flat throw." So I added some slo-mo to this video and reposted it here.

I've had some success stopping the elbow thanks to Blake's "don't start the pull until you see the target" garage drill. And since I have nose down issues, I've been trying to lower my pull line. Sorry the hoodie obscures my arm quite a bit.

It looks to me that I kind of bounce up during the pull and (maybe because of the bounce, maybe not) end up bringing the disc up and over instead of just through. I'm pretty sure that I'm not rolling my wrist over.

So am I correct in thinking that I am seeing myself pull the disc up and over? And how do I fix it? When I am doing it, it feels like I am pulling it straight through and that I am usually just getting it high enough not to be a worm burner as it is.

As usual any other random feedback is awesome. Those discs are flying about 250' and my current goal is to get my mids consistently to 275' on that type of throw (baby steps!).






Old version of the post:

So it's been about 4 months since I've posted any video. I fell like I'm doing a few things a lot better than in the past and have identified some things that I need to work on, but I want to try to work on one (or two) things at a time.

So here's the new video

It is four throws and the second is a voodoo getting a little past 250' which is my furthest putter throw ever. Yay!

Things that I have improved since this thread from last fall:
(1) Getting my front shoulder down on the reach back
(2) Getting my weight over my front leg
(3) Aiming issues (focusing on a point and having the disc rip out of my hand in generally the right direction)
(4) Pulling later than before

Things that I see when I watch the video:
(a) I still have no real elbow chop. I need to focus on punching toward the target with my elbow to initiate the chop.
(b) I am still pulling too early, but so much better than before. I need to work on using my lower body to "guide the disc into position (Keltik's steps 1-3 on my favorite thread)" instead of using my upper body to pull this disc into position.
(c) It felt like my pull line was super low, but when I watch the video I see that it is much higher than it felt.


So my big question is if there are bigger problems that I should be working on first, before working on my listed ones that I see? And any suggestions on how to work on any of (a)-(c) is always greatly appreciated.

I'm also having a bit of trouble trying to picture (and I just tried a whole bunch to do it without a disc in my hand) how to use my lower body to guide the disc into the front pec and then punch my elbow toward the target. I seem to be only able to do one or the other.
Last edited by josser on Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What's my next thing to work on?

Postby JR » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:44 am

You might or might not benefit from accelerating two or three inches later. Otherwise it looks so good that you should add more reach back as far as you can reach and once that works adding steps gives a lot more D.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: What's my next thing to work on?

Postby superdrive » Fri Feb 19, 2010 3:51 am

JR wrote:You might or might not benefit from accelerating two or three inches later. Otherwise it looks so good that you should add more reach back as far as you can reach and once that works adding steps gives a lot more D.


Think reach back as hip rotation. If you would think it this way your hips would start to move.
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Re: What's my next thing to work on?

Postby JR » Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:04 am

On top of that you can reach back farther by turning the shoulders farther away from the target than the hips can. Plus getting the disc even farther away and to the side and back than the shoulders do if you're using bent elbow for the rest of your career. Not a bad way to do things.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: What's my next thing to work on?

Postby MrScoopa » Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:16 am

You are looking really good man.

I'm also having a bit of trouble trying to picture (and I just tried a whole bunch to do it without a disc in my hand) how to use my lower body to guide the disc into the front pec and then punch my elbow toward the target. I seem to be only able to do one or the other.


I just worry about getting my elbow forward (aka jabbing - slowly) as my hips turn. You do guide with your arm. Like it appears you are doing in the video. Just keep at it. You are doing AWESOME imo. Something I found neat is you are doing the nudging motion to get the feel for it! I do that all the time. I must've looked strange a few weeks ago doing that like 10 times before each throw!

I *believe* - do not quote me on this; let someone with more knowledge than me verify - that the jabbing motion gets the rotation going faster. I do *seem* to hit it harder when I do a faster jab in conjunction with a quicker hip twist. Keep in mind you still have to keep the shoulder joint rigid. Same motions as before just faster. When I do this I am hitting around 300' with a t-bird. Maybe more, but I am trying to stray from exaggerations, and stick to averages.
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Re: What's my next thing to work on?

Postby josser » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:33 am

superdrive wrote:
JR wrote:You might or might not benefit from accelerating two or three inches later. Otherwise it looks so good that you should add more reach back as far as you can reach and once that works adding steps gives a lot more D.


Think reach back as hip rotation. If you would think it this way your hips would start to move.


I like this. I just tried it and really see how you get extra hip rotation with the longer reach back. I was going with the shorter reach back because it was helping me keep from accelerating too early, but now that I am starting to get the hang of the later acceleration I might be able to handle the longer reach back.

JR wrote:Plus getting the disc even farther away and to the side and back than the shoulders do if you're using bent elbow for the rest of your career. Not a bad way to do things.


JR you've recommended to me in the past to try to get the disc more to the side on reach backs. When I compare reaching straight back and reaching back and to the side I see some differences.

(1) Reaching back and to the side seems like it could help bring the disc closer to your chest (good)
(2) Reaching back and to the side seems to cock my wrist a bit more when the disc is on its way past my front pec (very good!)
(3) However reaching back and to the side goes against the DGR mantra of having the disc travel in a nice straight line throughout the throw

Are there other things that reaching back and to the side might accomplish?
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Re: What's my next thing to work on?

Postby JR » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:24 am

Reaching back to the side and back is a bit confusing and I would've been more precise if I had had the time. Regarding bent elbow form you'd reach back to the right of the tee for RHBH. Here the torso and the legs bring the disc to the right pec position. The first guy to push the world distance record to 200 meters Chris Voigt of Germany reaches back to the left of the tee. And both styles have the arm motion beginning on not a straight line ending up moving straight from the right pec position forward.

Bent elbow reach back to the right of the tee loads your side and back muscles more perhaps even abs. When you start to twist the hip toward the target this added tension unloads giving more power to the throw.

Voigt style keeps the arm muscles looser for me and some others. I don't know how universal this is. Added looseness makes the arm move faster.

This is preliminary of course but from feeling and thousands of field throws and the distances observed I'd say that a fully straight pull is more repeatable and accurate but shorter than either way of reaching back to the sides. The added accuracy and repeatability of a fully straight pull comes at least partially from easier timing. If you rip early or late the disc is more likely on the right path than with either side reach back style. Early slip is much more likely and vulnerable with to the sides reach back styles vs a fully straight pull.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: What's my next thing to work on?

Postby josser » Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:46 am

I will almost always make decisions that increase accuracy and repeatability over distance so I will probably stick with the straight reach back.

So my current list is to (1) try a longer reach back, (2) work on my elbow jab, (3) try to pull a bit later. Very manageable. But I musn't forget (0) get that nose down!

On a side note, I was watching Hyzernauts EO '05 coverage yesterday and really noticed how much Jesper reaches back and away from his body.
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Re: Renamed: Help cure my anny-itis

Postby josser » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:11 pm

Bump. Trying to start a new discussion on this old thread. See edit on the original post.
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Re: Renamed: Help cure my anny-itis

Postby superdrive » Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:37 am

JHern wrote:Two facts:

Fact 1: 300 ft is about as far as most men can throw using primarily the strength of their arm to propel the disc. For women it is closer to 230 ft.

Fact 2: The fact that you get the same distance no matter how you do your step implies that you aren't getting anything out of your legs, which drive your torso, which is the platform for your shoulders...

The sum:

Fact 1 + Fact 2 = You're strong-arming, throwing with your arm, and you're not getting much of anything from your torso and shoulders.

Your arm is of order 10X less powerful than your legs/torso. Stop throwing with your arm! Your arm is only useful for positioning and gripping, other than that, it is purely passive. Your arm needs to be turned into a whip that is driven by the powerful motion of your legs/hips/torso/shoulders.

Here's an exercise I might suggest:

Stand still with your arms at your side, completely relaxed. Turn your hips and torso back slowly and then rotate your hips quickly to the open position. Your arms should be whipped out and around in a windmill motion, without you using a single muscle in your arms. That's the feeling you should be aiming for.

Next do the same thing, except extend your throwing elbow out sideways from your body and hold it there (as if you put a vice around your shoulder). Allow your lower throwing arm and hand to hang limp from your elbow. Do it as if your arm were asleep and some mechanical device was locked onto your shoulder to keep the elbow pointed out side ways from your torso. Don't allow your elbow to move forward or backward, nor up nor down. It is completely locked in place, as if you no longer even had a shoulder joint and your upper arm were fused into your shoulder so that it would always point out sideways.

Now slowly turn your hips and torso back, and turn them abruptly open again. Don't use a single muscle in your arm! Now you should find that you've turned your arm into a whip. Your lower arm should be whipping forward super-fast. In fact, you can whip your lower arm forward way faster in this manner than your arm muscles could ever dream of doing. Your arm muscle strength decreases rapidly as speed increases, so they are useless anyways...trying to use them will only slow down this motion. You'll find that whipping your lower arm forward in this manner, with the elbow "stopped," will feel relatively effortless in comparison to trying to throw with your arm as you've probably been doing before.

Practice getting this feeling for a while. (Later you can work on the grip and positioning in finer detail, but for now focus on using your legs/hips/torso/shoulders as the powerful motor for whipping your arm forward.)
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Re: Renamed: Help cure my anny-itis

Postby superdrive » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:52 am

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Re: Renamed: Help cure my anny-itis

Postby JR » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:59 am

To stop throwing anny see if it helps to move the left leg more left.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Renamed: Help cure my anny-itis

Postby josser » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:25 pm

@superdrive: Keltik also had an awesome youtube video on using the hips. Working on hips is on my todo list, but it never made it to the top. But if it's something that will help with multiple problems, I will bump it up higher!

JR wrote:To stop throwing anny see if it helps to move the left leg more left.


With my stance perpendicular to the basket, are you saying that when I look down my front leg should be further back or further ahead than my bag leg?
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Re: Renamed: Help cure my anny-itis

Postby biodarwin » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:35 am

josser wrote: With my stance perpendicular to the basket, are you saying that when I look down my front leg should be further back or further ahead than my bag leg?


This might not be the problem here, since your not really x-stepping, but throwing from standstill. When your plant foot is more right, you will be more apt to throw anny. If your plant foot lands to the left, you are more apt to throw a hyzer.
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Re: Renamed: Help cure my anny-itis

Postby JR » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:03 am

Sideways placement influences hyzer/flat/anny and the distance between the feet has an influence on nose angle. The longer the foot separation the harder it is to bend forward at the waist for nose down throws. Even standing still the stance changes from sideways foot placement because it tilts the whole body like the leaning tower of Pisa. It can influence hyzer/any a lot. Especially if you don't clear your hips getting them jammed.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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