Where does 10M start?

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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby mobster » Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:00 pm

What about allowing a jump-up to the marker but not past it? As long as you landed and stopped forward motion behind your marker there would be no penalty.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:27 pm

That would allow players to shoot from out to the side of their lie as long as they landed a plant foot on the 30cm behind the marker after release.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Jeronimo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:52 pm

As a result of this thread I've notified the NFL that they are going to have to widen their regulatory field size because it's not clear enough to me if and when a player steps out of bounds while running up the sidelines.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Dogma » Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:29 pm

Jeronimo wrote:As a result of this thread I've notified the NFL that they are going to have to widen their regulatory field size because it's not clear enough to me if and when a player steps out of bounds while running up the sidelines.

I think a better football analogy would be the way they change the rules every year about how you can hit the quarterback, when you can hit the quarterback, and so forth. They are addressing a nebulous problem that mostly centers around people not controlling themselves and/or cheating on purpose.

This is the same thing. Most people playing disc golf have some trouble calling basic foot faults (or aren't willing to). An illegal jump putt is essentially a foot fault really close to the basket. Close enough to the basket that it can have a significant impact on the likelihood of the disc going in. Allowing jump putting that close to the basket encourages those errors, or at least makes them more common. Moving the line solves the problem. I don't think anyone is saying it's a perfect solution, because the perfect solution would be for people to putt legally in the first place. But since some people aren't putting legally, something needs to change. It's easy to say you don't like the suggested solution. But do you have a better one?
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Jeronimo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:03 pm

Dogma wrote:
Jeronimo wrote:As a result of this thread I've notified the NFL that they are going to have to widen their regulatory field size because it's not clear enough to me if and when a player steps out of bounds while running up the sidelines.


I think a better football analogy would be the way they change the rules every year about how you can hit the quarterback, when you can hit the quarterback, and so forth. They are addressing a nebulous problem that mostly centers around people not controlling themselves and/or cheating on purpose.


No. I think my analogy was better.

Dogma wrote:It's easy to say you don't like the suggested solution. But do you have a better one?


What solution? All i'm hearing about is a proposed rule change that a couple people think will discourage jump putting. You're moving the problem out to 50' rather than at 33'. Do you seriously think people aren't going to jump putt at 50'? lawlz? Are touring pro's actually jumping a foot forward before releasing the disc? Where's this supposed huge advantage you get when you're toes come 1" off the ground before you release the disc? I want to know since it apparently magically makes all your putts accurate enough to become a jealousy factor for top level touring pro's.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Fritz » Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:37 am

Seriously, it's 15 extra feet. It's not that much. I think people are freaking out about this new distance because they have this massive idea of it's so far away.
Honestly I was surprised when I attended a tournament that had the 10m circle marked, I was like wow 30' is that close? That can't be right.

I absolutely hate the jump putt (do I use it, you betcha, but only outside 45ish...) anyway, I tried to call someone on it because it was very obvious that it wasn't a valid jump and the argument that happen wasn't worth the trouble and I felt he benefited by cheating. Group wouldn't second cause no one was watching and couldn't honestly make the call.

If they got rid of the Jump Putt all together? I'd be okay with that. Would I be bummed all those years of practice gone, yeah but boy it would solve some headaches.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby thecomet » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:54 pm

What I care about most with respect to this issue is that the following aspects of the game are maintained through any rules changes:

i) The legality/importance of jump putting. Jump putting is skill that many people have developed, and a few have mastered. I think that, in general, jump putting is great for the game, and it provides another way to test players' skills. It also increases the "make-able but not a gimmie" putting range. Basically, making the stance/release rules stricter so as to negate the influence of jump putting would, in my opinion, take something great away from the game.

ii) The rule that a player must have a point of contact behind the mark upon release. As Chuck mentioned, getting rid of this would grant players a lot of additional freedom, and this freedom would be abused. For example, it would allow players to throw from quite a distance right of their mark from the air, dive sideways, and land with a hand right behind their mark. This rule is definitely important.

As long as these two things survive jump-putt-affecting rules changes, I won't be too upset. I'd be fine with the increase of the circle radius to 15 meters. As Chuck said, the jump putt problems (although I don't think they are as bad as people lead us to believe) usually manifest themselves worst right around the circle's edge. Even if you release from a bit of an illegal stance, you'd still have to make a very nice throw to make a 15+ meter putt. 10 meter jump putts, on the other hand, aren't extremely hard, and a person could abuse the rules for a non-negligible advantage. Plus, as people here have mentioned, I feel like 10 meter jump putts have a sort of "overkill" feeling, although I do jump putt whenever possible.

One final thing I would like to say that has also been said here is that this is not an issue of utmost importance, and doesn't demand any immediate changes. I remember Blake talking to me about how many putts the best putters in the world make (or, better put, don't make) from circle's edge. I mean, it isn't like these putts are gimmies, or even easy. Most tourney players I know personally are very inconsistent jump putters, even from circle's edge.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby ChUcK » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:49 pm

I'll chime in, looking at it from a different point of view.

Think about this issue from the spectator's eyes. I (and many others I know) want to grow the sport until we have crowds like Augusta's, so this is also important. The jump putt is fun to watch. Sure, it's not a 360 through-the-legs slam dunk, but it is certainly more dynamic than a standstill putt. Seeing people nail jump putts from 60' is sweet. That in turn makes seeing Steve Rico sink his planted from 100' that much more impressive and exciting to spectators.

I feel that there is a misconception that hasn't yet been addressed. Moving the line to 15m is not, as many seem to believe, solving anything. It reduces the severity of the problem, but nothing more. A solution would be applying the <10m stance rules to all non-tee shots. Not too sure if that is a good solution. Another solution would be to remove the 10m line restrictions completely. It's unclear what that would solve, though.

I think moving the line to 15m is a great rules change. It will increase the excitement factor of putting in general, which I am a fan of. It is also, as Fritz said, not as drastic as everyone thinks. It is a great tentative step, and the interpretation of the results of the rules change would be good brain food for Chuck K. I try to watch the touring pros whenever they come through the area, and the gallery appeal factor should also be taken into account by the PDGA.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:57 pm

The Rules Committee is weighing all of these factors. We should find out this summer what they are proposing for any change in the rule, if any.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Jeronimo » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:01 pm

Like I was saying...

ChUcK wrote:I feel that there is a misconception that hasn't yet been addressed. Moving the line to 15m is not, as many seem to believe, solving anything. It reduces the severity of the problem, but nothing more.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Redisculous » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:34 pm

Where in the rules does it say that jump putting is legal? I figured it was just overlooked like travelling in basketball. Just make it officially illegal and be done with it.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Dogma » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:55 pm

Redisculous wrote:Where in the rules does it say that jump putting is legal? I figured it was just overlooked like travelling in basketball. Just make it officially illegal and be done with it.

How would you differentiate it from following through on a drive after you release your disc? It's the same thing, just closer to the basket. Assuming you do it legally.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Redisculous » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:36 pm

Jumping is something completely different from following through, or you would see a lot of people jumpin gon thier drives. Stepping past your lie, past the edge of the teepad, is following through. The only time I have ever hopped after a drive is when I lost my balance, which would make a putt illegal anyhow.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Frank Delicious » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:24 pm

I don't think I would want to jump as I drive. That wouldn't let me throw very far.

Although doing a jump-turn-throw thing Derek Jeter style sounds bad ass.
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Re: Where does 10M start?

Postby Jeronimo » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:53 pm

Frank Delicious wrote:I don't think I would want to jump as I drive. That wouldn't let me throw very far.

Although doing a jump-turn-throw thing Derek Jeter style sounds bad ass.


Triple Lutz as part of your run up?
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