Compiling board posts into a coherent article

[JHern]

Blake, You write as a scientist or engineer. But many of your readers don't have that background and probably miss much of what you are explaining. I know I do.

I know I'm guilty of this as well. I try to tone down my technical language as much as possible and shoot for intuition, but its still hard. I was a student in physics, math, and natural sciences for over a decade, and after that I crossed a sort of threshold in my thinking (well, that was the purpose of it all, I suppose). But still it is very important to try and make things easier to understand for others.

So for writing purposes your ghost writer/collaborator should be someone who has a background in science and the ability to break down and explain the technical terms used. And the patience to do this. In addition, drafts should be tested on different players to see how much they are actually absorbing.

Boy would I love to have the time to do this! I just have to figure out a way to earn a salary or living to support my family (especially since I'm not a good enough player to make any cash at all in tournaments ).

The greater need is for you to do videos. The easiest way to understand motion is to watch it...Imagine if I wanted to explain to someone how to tie a necktie. A hundred thousand words, carefully and skillfully chosen would be inferior to a simple video showing how to do it for most interested learners.

Mark, you must have worked on the videos you have done, with some basic scripts, a plot, etc.. Could you tell us more about the process? Putting together the script/plan, deciding how to film it, doing it, and then of course editing...this is not straightforward, and requires even more work, perhaps, than just the distillation into coherence as an article that Blake is proposing above. But I agree it is definitely worthwhile!

[Blake_T]

this is from feedback of people i send to this site to view videos and articles. they claim that they are hit with too much information sometimes.

people often try to take too big of a bite at first. when i introduce someone to the sport i generally don't give them any tips until they are throwing 200' aside from crap like "keep it low" and "tilt it this way to make it curve." the whole "intro to disc golf" thing doesn't have much appeal to me anymore. the stuff i have been writing lately is graduate level in comparison.

anyone who's passed disc golf 101 knows things like the x-step, to keep the disc tight to your body during the pull, etc. and they are capable of passing on that knowledge. right now my focus is on DG401, and my efforts are to make the more elusive concepts understandable.

Then, once you have the flow of information right, you could have certain people film different aspects of the article either with simple footage of that certain aspect being performed, or have footage of the verbal and visual together.

The key is that the written portion has links for the individual footage. Too often, people try to jam as much info into a video that it becomes over whelming to the viewer. Sure they should rewind and re-watch. repeatedly. over and over. until it bleeds and you have nightmares about it.

you are correct that it would help, but honestly i don't think it will help as much as people think it will. a key example is the towel drill. i bet we have 20+ locker room nightmare caliber towel snappers on here that haven't been able to integrate a single concept of the towel snap into their dg throw. what's the next step? write an article on how to transition the towel drill into your throw? then get asked for a video... so we video tape someone snapping a towel and then using a similar motion to throw a disc. people will still moan and that shows where the point of failure really happens.

good:
snapping a towel then using a similar motion to snap a disc.

what most people do:
snapping a towel and then throw a disc exactly the same as they always do.

this happens with nearly anything that is difficult to do. being able to change the way you think about things, change the way your body moves, and then have the discipline to practice and improve the way that you move is the key to anything difficult that requires the body.

it's the same reason there aren't millions of black belts in the world, millions of superb sculptors, millions of virtuoso pianists, millions of professional golfers, etc.

Maybe a video of someone doing something horribly (like myself, ahem) and point out what they're doing wrong vs someone with great form and explain and point out what they're doing right with backup and validation from all the advice you have. I think it would make a very powerful thing.

i've done that in the past, and it's actually not a very powerful thing. i'm not trying to be sarcastic when i say this, but people never garner what they should from these types of comparisons.

if you want to punch like bruce lee, you don't go rent a bunch of bruce lee movies and try to mimic his punches, nor would comparing your own punch to his on video be of much benefit. everyone knows what a punch looks like and can throw something resembling a punch. you would be better off buying bruce lee's book, opening your mind, and applying bruce lee's CONCEPTS to your punch and then training your ass off using said concepts. after months/years of hard work you will have a punch that is much more bruce lee-like than anything you'd come up with purely trying to imitate.

Blake - is there anyway to provide the text to edit/compile to somebody or is going into the threads the only way? Do we have any specific threads in mind? I've read some really good stuff from you, as you said, but damned if I can recall where the hell it was.

no. the people who are already following the correct trail of breadcrumbs to the right goal know which ones they are. there's only like 6-8 threads with it (300', stick vs. disc, drive vs. slap, hitting it half way, slip vs. rip etc.), most of which are only a few pages long.

as i said, right now i'm basically wanting an article that will be relevant to the top 10% of disc golfers knowing it may guide 1 in 100 to the desired end result.

the #1 thing that people should try to garner about anything i write is to be open to adjusting the way you think about the throw and hope that your body is coordinated to follow suit with what your mind can learn.

[discraft]

Rough draft
Slip vs Rip The point of contact and the drive

98% of disc golfers have slip on nearly all of their drives (except for on grip locks).People that max out ~400' still throw this way, with lots of slip.The disc slips out on pretty much every throw but they have practiced their timing and positions allowing a slipped throw to come out straight. This is why you see some guys who peak at 380' straight but can grip lock 450'. When they grip locked it they actually hit it.

In baseball (and golf), there are hitters that SLAP the ball and hitters that DRIVE the ball. a hit that is "slapped" is where the ball bounces off of the bat (or club) after contact. These generally don't have home run power. a hit that is "driven" is where the bat makes contact with the ball and then the hitter releases his wrists, causing a huge acceleration of the bat (or club) head and the bat head will fling the ball off the bat. Basically, a slap has very little force imparted on it.The bat redirects the ball.a drive has high levels of force imparted on it. the bat stops the ball and then pushes the ball. this is the same for golf.

The only time when arm speed is of any importance is AFTER the point of contact.

The point of contact in a disc golf throw occurs when the disc enters the power zone, which is
basically when the disc reaches the right edge of the body. the disc should be close to the body. the wrist is usually curled and the elbow is at its maximum amount of bend here.This is the point of contact. the arm/disc must accelerate immediately after the point of contact. The release of the bat head is the tug that follows, uncoiling the elbow and launching the disc. This is how you drive a disc (aka throw with snap).

430' with a teebird is big snap.
430' with a destroyer is not big snap



If you throw like most people, when you are throwing hard you are likely reaching peak velocity as the disc passes the chest and slowing down as you enter and progress through the power zone.If this happens the inertia and centrifugal force will pull the disc from your hand.

This is especially noticeable with wider-rimmed discs. i know many people think they can grip wide rims harder since when they are waiving a disc around in their hand a wide rimmed discs feels "more stable," but in motion, you get much much greater leverage on a narrower rim (even if the narrow rimmed discs flops around in your hand when you are waiving it around).
This is also why i say grip strength is the only real strength you need to have to throw far.

To get a "tight" grip, the rim must be narrower than the middle segment of your index finger. The narrower the rim, the inside, basically from the center of the joint to the center of the joint. that part of the finger must be able to "clear" the rim width if you want to get a lot of leverage... basically, the pad/tip of the index finger must be able to extend beyond the rim wall and come "back at it" to get maximum strength.

low snap thrower gets the disc moving 70mph before launch but the disc launches at 40mph. 40/70mph = 0.571 (hits very little of it)

medium snap thrower gets the disc moving 70mph before launch but the disc launches at 55mph. 55/70mph = 0.786 (hits half of it)

high snap thrower gets the disc moving 70mph before launch but the disc launches at 68mph. 68/70 = 0.971 (hits most of it)

This is really where the key to everything comes in.



The difference between the wrist in half-hitting vs. full-hitting is:

With half-hitters, the wrist extends because the inertia/momentum of the disc forces the wrist open. It's basically a half-slip.

With full-hitters, the wrist extends actively and accelerates the leading edge of the disc to a VERY high velocity in a very short period of time.

What you are looking for is to transfer the force caused by the change in velocity of the part of the disc that becomes the lead edge as it whips around via wrist extension (the angular velocity is huge).It basically goes from like 0 to 100mph in like 4" of wrist movement.What you are looking for is to transfer the force caused by the change in velocity of the part of the disc that becomes the lead edge as it whips around via wrist extension (the angular velocity is huge). It basically goes from like 0 to 100mph in like 4" of wrist movement.

Basically, your goal should be to exert force on the disc. if done correctly, spin will happen.


Remember that this feeling is part of a process. at first you feel the disc pulling against the fingers, the second stage in the process is to feel the fingers pulling back against the disc and slinging it forward. The lock leaves during the pivot and the last thing you should feel is a slingshot off the index finger.

[rehder]

The greater need is for you to do videos. The easiest way to understand motion is to watch it.

+1x10^6

I would garner a HUGE amount more than just reading it. I know others would as well.

Maybe a video of someone doing something horribly (like myself, ahem) and point out what they're doing wrong vs someone with great form and explain and point out what they're doing right with backup and validation from all the advice you have. I think it would make a very powerful thing.

Well then you should go to the video critique section and look and read all the comments Blake has had on different throws. Because its already there. And with 99% certainty he has covered things you are not doing.

[patdabunny]

What needs to happen first, before any video is filmed, is to get all the knowledge into one repository or article.

Then, once you have the flow of information right, you could have certain people film different aspects of the article either with simple footage of that certain aspect being performed, or have footage of the verbal and visual together.

The key is that the written portion has links for the individual footage. Too often, people try to jam as much info into a video that it becomes over whelming to the viewer. Sure they should rewind and re-watch. repeatedly. over and over. until it bleeds and you have nightmares about it.

but i do digress. people just aren't like that. by writing a clear and concise article, and having smaller clips interspersed to show the point at hand (lets say wrist open) then the reader doesn't get overwhelmed.

this is from feedback of people i send to this site to view videos and articles. they claim that they are hit with too much information sometimes.

^This.

[patdabunny]

Maybe a video of someone doing something horribly (like myself, ahem) and point out what they're doing wrong vs someone with great form and explain and point out what they're doing right with backup and validation from all the advice you have. I think it would make a very powerful thing.

i've done that in the past, and it's actually not a very powerful thing. i'm not trying to be sarcastic when i say this, but people never garner what they should from these types of comparisons.

if you want to punch like bruce lee, you don't go rent a bunch of bruce lee movies and try to mimic his punches, nor would comparing your own punch to his on video be of much benefit. everyone knows what a punch looks like and can throw something resembling a punch. you would be better off buying bruce lee's book, opening your mind, and applying bruce lee's CONCEPTS to your punch and then training your ass off using said concepts. after months/years of hard work you will have a punch that is much more bruce lee-like than anything you'd come up with purely trying to imitate.

What I was trying to say is that it would be powerful for me. This is the way I (and some others) learn. Saying people NEVER garner what they should is a bit of an exaggeration. I also understand it's about concepts, but I also learn better with a teacher than by myself (which is why I'm here). I'm not trying to imitate anything. I'd like to emulate some players' forms (who wouldn't?), but to make it my own.

[MrScoopa]

This is such a daunting task. I will just ramble. Body positions have been gone over 1 million times. When I stopped thinking as much about body positions I got more of it. Once I felt snap I changed my body positions to generate more speed to give more snap. Like Blake has said you need to have some snap to get more snap(not an exact quote).

So, the goal is and always has been to feel it. This is how I really started feeling it:

Forget every notion you have of how much power or motion you think is required to throw a disk. The principles of physics are throwing the disc now, or if you think like me, magic

It is easier to feel the snap of a disc with anhyzer disc orientation and a short reachback. Your wrist wants to open this way and the disc wants to fall that way. Keep your arm loose. Turn your hips. Let your forearm swing out in anhyzer fashion. Try to keep your elbow at a roughly stationary position that will let your forearm perform this swing. It helps if your elbow is pointed out(right pec drill).

If your loose your wrist will open and the disc will rip out with surprisingly fast speed.

The speed of the motions don't have to be constant and really they shouldn't be. Fast bursts of speed at the right times is what gives power. Everywhere but these key "hit" points it is important to be fluid\smooth\loose.

Quick hips.
A quick elbow chop(or thrust) can sling out the forearm faster(this would be the last thing I'd worry about and isn't even needed for a ~300' throw with any fairway). This is very hard to time.

The magic(active wrist extension):

This motion(my wrist should open more for a throw):

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrScoopa#p/ ... tV3lvhTBEk

Don't forget the other things you have learned. Follow through, pull lines, clean pivot.

My take on things. Feel free to correct me. I'm still figuring things out

[patdabunny]

Well then you should go to the video critique section and look and read all the comments Blake has had on different throws. Because its already there. And with 99% certainty he has covered things you are not doing.

I was talking specifically about having it all in video form vs written form.

[terazen]

Would it make sense to put a link to Dan's working from the hit back video and Bradley's snap 2009 videos somewhere in the introduction? I was thinking maybe a disclaimer that if you can't throw an a,b or c disc "400/425/?" consistently then check out these other threads first and watch the videos.

I'm still only getting out to 400 once every 50 or so throws and it sounds like the article Blake is proposing would be intended for someone with better technique than I have at the moment.

[Blake_T]

I was talking specifically about having it all in video form vs written form.

at some point you have to take personal responsibility. reading this reply made 1 minute after his post makes it sound like you didn't even read/consider what MrScoopa wrote, which is actually quite true info.

if you want a video w/ explanation's watch dan's video of my working from the hit back concept and relearn your throw from scratch. the video you crave is there, but you have to actually want it bad enough to do what is taught in the video. if you're unwilling to do that, the responsibility for that is on you.

What I was trying to say is that it would be powerful for me. This is the way I (and some others) learn. Saying people NEVER garner what they should is a bit of an exaggeration. I also understand it's about concepts, but I also learn better with a teacher than by myself (which is why I'm here). I'm not trying to imitate anything. I'd like to emulate some players' forms (who wouldn't?), but to make it my own.

body positions vs. timing. everyone finds timing in their own way and on their own terms. timing dominates everything else. when you have a feel for timing, you develop your own body positions to improve timing that won't look like anyone else's but they will share the same 7 common positions that all long throwing pros have. when you have timing and your own body positions you will then have all 13 things that long throwing pros have in common.

read this again and actually think about what it means:
if you want to punch like bruce lee, you don't go rent a bunch of bruce lee movies and try to mimic his punches, nor would comparing your own punch to his on video be of much benefit. everyone knows what a punch looks like and can throw something resembling a punch. you would be better off buying bruce lee's book, opening your mind, and applying bruce lee's CONCEPTS to your punch and then training your ass off using said concepts. after months/years of hard work you will have a punch that is much more bruce lee-like than anything you'd come up with purely trying to imitate.

open your mind. lose what you think you know and discover truth in your own way.

i've worked with over 1000 players in person, more like 5000 if you count phone/email/message board. i have a fairly good idea of what works for people and what they need to learn and what doesn't work. i also can spot the red flags of people i would deem uncoachable (no matter what you show them and how you try to help them it won't matter).

discraft: i will scan that over when i can.

[black udder]

Well then you should go to the video critique section and look and read all the comments Blake has had on different throws. Because its already there. And with 99% certainty he has covered things you are not doing.

I was talking specifically about having it all in video form vs written form.

Honestly, it's all been written and put on video here somewhere. The problem is, as others have said, it doesn't click the same way with the same info for everybody. I read and watched this information for ages before it started to click. No matter how it's explained or shown, if it's not clicking for you yet, it won't matter.

The concept of throwing a disc far isn't a complex one. It's surprisingly easy to understand, but it's an issue of not being able to see the forest for the trees. At some point, folks that don't understand it just go "aha!" and from then on, it's understanding timing and working in a specific direction with a specific goal vs just randomly throwing with no direction.

I watched so many videos but never saw the late pull until I understood it was a requirement and how it felt. Then I was able to see it. If you look at the different players, you realize that they all look quite different if you don't know what you're looking for. And by the time you know what you're looking for, you probably understand how to throw and would benefit more from practice time than watching video.

As for inexperienced players getting overwhelmed, yeah, we discuss the nuts and bolts of throwing here, so if you want to benefit, you need to be prepared to look through all the basics first instead of just diving into the deep end. Lots of people have learned a lot about throwing from taking their time and reading the info on this site. It's not for everybody, but help is here if you want it.

Subjects I know have been covered here in detail:

Foot pivot
Hip pivot
stopping elbow
wrist extension
Shoulder plane
Nose down

Most, if not all, have some sort of video in the thread and if you understand each segment, you should understand how to throw (understanding being only part of the accomplishment).

[Blake_T]

I watched so many videos but never saw the late pull until I understood it was a requirement and how it felt. Then I was able to see it. If you look at the different players, you realize that they all look quite different if you don't know what you're looking for. And by the time you know what you're looking for, you probably understand how to throw and would benefit more from practice time than watching video.

well said here.

As for inexperienced players getting overwhelmed, yeah, we discuss the nuts and bolts of throwing here, so if you want to benefit, you need to be prepared to look through all the basics first instead of just diving into the deep end. Lots of people have learned a lot about throwing from taking their time and reading the info on this site. It's not for everybody, but help is here if you want it.

correct as well.

[Sean40474]

The disc golf wiki that was linked to by someone on the forums a few months back would probably be a good place to draw up the important information in one place before merging it all into an article.

I think that site is severely underused.

I agree, that would be an awesome site that any one of us can use to update stuff about disc golf.

[patdabunny]

at some point you have to take personal responsibility. reading this reply made 1 minute after his post makes it sound like you didn't even read/consider what MrScoopa wrote, which is actually quite true info.

open your mind. lose what you think you know and discover truth in your own way.

i have a fairly good idea of what works for people and what they need to learn and what doesn't work. i also can spot the red flags of people i would deem uncoachable (no matter what you show them and how you try to help them it won't matter).

Blake--I was just giving a suggestion, as that's kinda where this thread was going. Mr Scoopa's post wasn't up when I replied initially and had I seen it (which I didn't), I would have take it into consideration. I am VERY grateful for all the knowledge and help that has been provided by MrScoopa, you, Dan, and others. I do not doubt you at all, as you are probably the most knowledgable person in terms of the physics of throwing a disc. It was all about how some people learn. Maybe I didn't explain myself the best. I was just trying to help out.

Sorry for being one of the uncoachables...

[Blake_T]

Blake--I was just giving a suggestion, as that's kinda where this thread was going. Mr Scoopa's post wasn't up when I replied initially and had I seen it (which I didn't), I would have take it into consideration. I am VERY grateful for all the knowledge and help that has been provided by MrScoopa, you, Dan, and others. I do not doubt you at all, as you are probably the most knowledgable person in terms of the physics of throwing a disc. It was all about how some people learn. Maybe I didn't explain myself the best. I was just trying to help out.

it's more that i was seeing if people were interested in doing some compiling for some articles and the same things from the same people that tells me they are still wanting to head down the wrong path.

e.g. if someone's problem is not keeping the disc close to their body during the pull you can show them a video of themselves swinging their arm out wide and a video of someone who does keep it tight during the throw. now what? it's still up to them to keep the disc close. you come up with drills for them to do, visualizations, analogies, etc. but it's still up to them to keep the disc close. 9 out of 10 times the problem is that they are fixed upon their throw. they try to make all the changes within a set of defined muscle memory and it doesn't happen. to make changes to your throw you have to "let go" of your current motion and change that motion.

this is the primary reason that i quit doing open lessons. standing in a field watching someone throw for 2 hours only interests me if they are able to make adjustments. if i give them the sole goal of: throw while keeping the disc close, don't worry about where it goes or how far it goes, just focus on keeping the disc close. 2/3rds of the time they just continue to throw with their old motion over and over again. it's fairly frustrating and ends up feeling like a waste of time.

when i get told my writing is too scientific or you need a video to understand it makes me feel like people aren't actually reading these posts. throwing a pen isn't scientific. telling someone to concentrate on throwing the disc rather than on specific body positions isn't scientific. talking about throwing a punch isn't scientific.

explaining the difference between the point of contact and drive is a bit scientific, but it's a concept; the background knowledge needed to breed the correct mindset.

90% of what people are seeking (with big snap) is feel-based. it's up to each individual to discover their feel and there's no perfect way to teach someone feel, they need to work through trial & error.

i think BU is most correct. the majority of people are trying to skip the middle. the throw has to have the basics before it's worth going after the advanced concepts.