Compiling board posts into a coherent article

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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby Blake_T » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:47 pm

btw, it was Bradley Walker, USAnarchy, and peppermack seemed to have garnered the most benefit from my recent posts.

emiller and mrscoopa are definitely heading down the right track as well.
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby USAnarchy » Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:46 pm

or to sum all of that up... :D

people just want the airplane to get them from point A to point B.

they dont care how or why the airplane works.

yet, they ask questions such as how can it fly faster? bigger engine? sleeker design?

but then they dont want to be bothered with the details, they just want to see results.




The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting different results.

By that definition, most disc golfers are insane. Its the sane few that realize and understand what is going on, and it seems to me that most of those people are the main posters/lurkers of this site.



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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby Mark Ellis » Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:36 pm

JHern wrote:
Mark Ellis wrote:The greater need is for you to do videos. The easiest way to understand motion is to watch it...Imagine if I wanted to explain to someone how to tie a necktie. A hundred thousand words, carefully and skillfully chosen would be inferior to a simple video showing how to do it for most interested learners.


Mark, you must have worked on the videos you have done, with some basic scripts, a plot, etc.. Could you tell us more about the process? Putting together the script/plan, deciding how to film it, doing it, and then of course editing...this is not straightforward, and requires even more work, perhaps, than just the distillation into coherence as an article that Blake is proposing above. But I agree it is definitely worthwhile!


A script? A plan? :lol:

Maybe that is how it should be done. To date the process I have been involved in has been somewhat simpler. The camera sets up. The camera turns on. I say and do whatever comes to mind at the moment. Months or years later (if at all) it gets edited and published with little or no input from me.

I would love to do some serious work with a professional team and produce some quality work. Heck, I would love to be able to do retakes of stuff I was not happy with.

IMO a poor video might be more useful than a good article if at least it is done by someone who can demonstrate good throwing motion. If a picture is worth a thousand words then a video is many thousand pictures. More than that an article might be read by a few hundred readers. A video might be watched by a few hundred thousand watchers.

The current generation prefers videos to articles. I get contacted all the time by new players who threw their first golf disc, went home, searched Youtube and found me. Some of these folks do not yet own their own disc and they are sending me questions.
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby MrScoopa » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:07 pm

All of that is on video already.

Hip power: Dan and Keltiks hip power videos.
A good pull through\follow through: Bradley's and Dan's videos.
Late acceleration: Dan's video.
Wrist Snap: Blake's "Distance Drilling: Increasing Your Distance From the Ground Up" article w\ video..

What is trying to be captured here is the timing.

To put it this way. I had a moment of stiffness and stage fright. My timing was gone. 10 throws or so I had 300' max with big d drivers. For 18 consecutive holes before I was doing that D' with a Buzzz. Now, after that 10 throw rut my throws are 100' longer. The only difference was the timing. I was loose, fluid, and just let the things happen.

You can't video timing. It will look like any other throw unless you know what to look for. A person that grunts and throws with all their strength makes for an impressive looking *possible* throw. Then you see it plop down at 250'. Hehe that was me a about a year ago.

Once you feel snap you can build on it. Once you feel snap you can see the timing in others despite body positions.
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby black udder » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:16 pm

What folks having problems understanding this need is some sort of interactivity. Videos only help if you understand what it is you're looking at (when you're talking about throwing 350'+).

People need to be able to see a person do it, then ask their own individual questions - the things that are confounding them. Unfortunately, I don't know that we're at that point yet with video technology (that it's easy and readily available for the masses).

There are so many elements that play a part in a good, long throw, where do you start? What assumptions do you make about the student?

I still believe Dan's original working from the hit backwards is a the best video. But what really helps is to go back through these threads and understand some specific point. Say, stopping the elbow. Read up on that and then watch Dan throwing. You'll see where his elbow stops and his forearm comes out. You can compare that with the many other videos on the site to see the variety of body positions and disc positions. You can take hip rotation - watch Dan's video on that, then read the thread, then watch Dan's throwing from the hit backwards and see how he incorporates it. See how others do.

All the information is here and with video examples. Looking at the Technique sticky has a ton of links, some including video, of most of these subjects.

@drledford93 - what, specifically, are you looking for help with? A specific portion of the throw? The whole thing? Or were you just thinking about others looking for answers?
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby MrScoopa » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:52 pm

The thing with drledford93 was a misunderstanding. I've talked with him and he didn't originally get what the gist of this thread was about. The subtleties of the throw. Water under the bridge.

The hit back method is in my opinion the best way to learn to throw far. People just give up too soon. Having said that there are prerequisites to even the hit back method. I was a total bone head when it came to the concepts of hips and weight forward. It just wouldn't click as easily.
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby Blake_T » Thu Apr 29, 2010 12:48 am

What is trying to be captured here is the timing.

Once you feel snap you can build on it. Once you feel snap you can see the timing in others despite body positions.


these two sentences are completely true.

it's all about the speed out after the disc reaches the right edge of the body.

JHern:

i had already scripted videos in the past and yes, videos are fine for teaching basics and fundamentals. as i've said, right now i'm concentrating more on finding effective methods for teaching the most difficult subjects as all of the videos on the basics (and even some more advanced things) already exist.

------------------------------------------------------

people usually fail at the difficult concepts because they lack the diligence to see them through all the way. it's like they expect the timing to magically appear one day while they are playing a round.

it took dan like 4000 practice throws in the span of 10 days with the SOLE focus of those throws being trying to "hit it," and that was after i had imparted every bit of knowledge i had on the subject to him. he wasn't playing rounds, these were going to a field and throwing 4000+ times simply trying to learn to snap a disc hard. it paid off.

it took me around 5500-6000 practice throws to learn to hit it across ~25 days but i had a lot less knowledge/resources available to me at that time.

for people to put this into perspective, 4000 field throws is more than most people do in an entire year, for some, it's more like what they would do in 5 years. 4000 practice field throws in 10 days = 400 practice throws a day. if i remember what he told me correctly, the first few days he did over 300 right pec drill throws per day.

i wasn't holding his hand during any of it. he did all of those throws on his own and then called me up and was like "i'm throwing 500' now, can you teach me to throw 200'? i'm overthrowing everything by a mile."

i'm very confident that after 4000 practice field throws, most people will "get" the majority of these concepts. not everyone will be throwing 500', but the chances of reaching that increase significantly the more you practice. with some of the things i have written lately, i wouldn't doubt if it was possible in 2000 practice field throws :P

my advice to players looking to up their game as quickly as possible is to do 4-8 hours of field work for every round they play. i would also wager that maybe 1 in 50 players is willing to do this.

when people give up on the right pec drill it's because they threw 25 throws and sucked at it and quit. for those who stick with it there's usually a noticeable breakthrough at around the 200 throw mark.

what i've learned over the years is that most requests for videos come from people who aren't willing to put the serious work in. they quit after 25 poor right pec throws and reverted back to their old form. they quit after 25 working from the hit back throws and reverted back to their old form. they gave up on throwing the pen before they quit grip-locking the pen. they learned to snap a towel but never transferred any of that to their disc golf throw.

i'm searching for the magical technique to teach, to make snap attainable in 200 practice throws, but unless people get out in the field and wear their fingers to the bone throwing with specifics in mind, make their break-through, and then give feedback upon what their magic trick was, it's difficult to do this.

all in all, this thread sorta conveys why i get burned out a bit with disc golf.
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby Lithicon » Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:18 am

90% of what people are seeking (with big snap) is feel-based. it's up to each individual to discover their feel and there's no perfect way to teach someone feel, they need to work through trial & error.

I've done this lately, and you can't teach feel. Like you said they have to get that just slightest hint of it, then when they get a little bit of they build on it from there. And, you've helped me with that. Like you've said the video's are GREAT to get some basics down, to get a general idea. But, the main concepts are covered all around with 2 seconds spent searching for it. The hard to get details, you can't teach with video, which is what you're trying to say.

i think BU is most correct. the majority of people are trying to skip the middle. the throw has to have the basics before it's worth going after the advanced concepts.

You pointed this out to me also in a way that I was focusing on stuff that just didn't matter for what I was trying to do. Once you pointed it out to me, I then started to figure it out. Then after hours of practice in a field, I got started getting the feel for it. More on this after the next quote!

i'm searching for the magical technique to teach, to make snap attainable in 200 practice throws, but unless people get out in the field and wear their fingers to the bone throwing with specifics in mind, make their break-through, and then give feedback upon what their magic trick was, it's difficult to do this.

As I said, once I got a feel for it, even after reading all this it makes sense, but you don't know how it "FEELS." Practice is the only way to make that happen. No amount of video or reading can get that. But, I got a good feel for what I was doing, made some adjustments, and after telling you my incraeses, then you would give me another little bit to focus on. Done that, and got the feel for it after more hours of practice.

all in all, this thread sorta conveys why i get burned out a bit with disc golf.

I've noticed this quite a bit with your absence for a while, and with discussions we've had, it's like everything. You don't mind teaching what you know, but you're like any teacher, you don't want to go over and over redundant small issues that aren't the real keys to the largest picture. But, you can't seem to get that point across, and you've said that many times in this thread.

I wish you the best of luck in this endeavor to make this happen, but this is going to get rough. :?
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby bcsst26 » Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:13 am

I have to agree that videos aren't the way to go. I have watched video after video with not getting it. I think I can finally say that last night I got it. After a long time and working on the right pec drill/throwing from a standstill etc last night it finally all clicked. I went out to the field and started with the right pec drill. I tried it a bunch and got decent distance but something wasn't there. So I worked on throwing the disc like a stick. There it was. It finally clicked. I tried this in the past but with no luck. For some reason last night it finally clicked. I spent the rest of the time throwing from the right pec keeping this feeling. I have more work to do but I am pretty sure that I am starting to get it. The feel that was there brings all Blakes recent stuff together with Bradley's and MB's. My main problem in the past was I would work on the right pec drill or a throw and from there I always read to accelerate. And I did. But I was doing it without a purpose. I was to wild and tried to go to fast to soon. The throwing a stick idea gave me something to concentrate on and now I can actually say that when I am throwing I am trying to throw the disc and just not my arm. If I get some free time here I will try to write something up even though I am early on in a break through but it might be hard with two young daughters sharing my time. Thanks for some great posts.
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby patdabunny » Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:06 am

Blake_T wrote:people usually fail at the difficult concepts because they lack the diligence to see them through all the way. it's like they expect the timing to magically appear one day while they are playing a round.

it took dan like 4000 practice throws in the span of 10 days with the SOLE focus of those throws being trying to "hit it," and that was after i had imparted every bit of knowledge i had on the subject to him. he wasn't playing rounds, these were going to a field and throwing 4000+ times simply trying to learn to snap a disc hard. it paid off.

it took me around 5500-6000 practice throws to learn to hit it across ~25 days but i had a lot less knowledge/resources available to me at that time.

for people to put this into perspective, 4000 field throws is more than most people do in an entire year, for some, it's more like what they would do in 5 years. 4000 practice field throws in 10 days = 400 practice throws a day. if i remember what he told me correctly, the first few days he did over 300 right pec drill throws per day.

i wasn't holding his hand during any of it. he did all of those throws on his own and then called me up and was like "i'm throwing 500' now, can you teach me to throw 200'? i'm overthrowing everything by a mile."

i'm very confident that after 4000 practice field throws, most people will "get" the majority of these concepts. not everyone will be throwing 500', but the chances of reaching that increase significantly the more you practice. with some of the things i have written lately, i wouldn't doubt if it was possible in 2000 practice field throws :P

my advice to players looking to up their game as quickly as possible is to do 4-8 hours of field work for every round they play. i would also wager that maybe 1 in 50 players is willing to do this.

when people give up on the right pec drill it's because they threw 25 throws and sucked at it and quit. for those who stick with it there's usually a noticeable breakthrough at around the 200 throw mark.

what i've learned over the years is that most requests for videos come from people who aren't willing to put the serious work in. they quit after 25 poor right pec throws and reverted back to their old form. they quit after 25 working from the hit back throws and reverted back to their old form. they gave up on throwing the pen before they quit grip-locking the pen. they learned to snap a towel but never transferred any of that to their disc golf throw.

i'm searching for the magical technique to teach, to make snap attainable in 200 practice throws, but unless people get out in the field and wear their fingers to the bone throwing with specifics in mind, make their break-through, and then give feedback upon what their magic trick was, it's difficult to do this.

all in all, this thread sorta conveys why i get burned out a bit with disc golf.


I think if you stickied this and made this MANDATORY reading for anyone wishing to ask questions, it will help. I had an inkling that this is what you and Dan did, but not the full picture. I CANNOT play rounds very often (less than 1/week) for medical reasons. However, I do try and go out and practice almost every day, roughly 200 throws/day. This is all my body can handle. And I give it all it can handle. :D

I really think that if you show in a very up front way that you have to PRACTICE and not play rounds, it will sink in for most people. Believe it or not, I do understand this. It took watching Bradley's snap videos a 3rd time last night to finally get what I wasn't doing (the hammer throw). My flat throws with a TB instantly went to 425'. That's what it took for me. I'm nowhere near finished, but it's a great increase for now.

Blake--we turn to you because you know the most about this and can explain it in a way that is understanable by most. Just realize that while it has to be incredibly difficult to answer stuff a lot, it is a huge sign of respect from all of us. We turn to you to find answers when what we're trying and doing after reading and studying isn't working.
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby Blake_T » Thu Apr 29, 2010 9:18 am

bcsst:

thanks for sharing your experiences.

drledford:

looks like you got your breakthrough.

here's the hard part.

it will take 20,000 correctly performed reps to integrate it into muscle memory and become natural. 20k is the magic number generally referenced with things like a basketball player retooling their shot mechanics, a quarterback changing their throwing mechanics etc for the motion to become subconscious.

using masterbeato as a reference point again, it took him about 4 months to be able to "hit it all the time," and he was keeping up a similar (although slightly toned down) practice regimen to what he used to learn it.

usually it's when your mind is still alert and your body is slightly tired that your body will actually slow down and shed its previous muscle memory allowing you to make changes at a and work at a pace that suits your body. however, if you wait until the point of exhaustion both physically and mentally, you won't be able to do anything well after that point.
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby patdabunny » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:03 am

Blake_T wrote:bcsst:

thanks for sharing your experiences.

drledford:

looks like you got your breakthrough.

here's the hard part.

it will take 20,000 correctly performed reps to integrate it into muscle memory and become natural. 20k is the magic number generally referenced with things like a basketball player retooling their shot mechanics, a quarterback changing their throwing mechanics etc for the motion to become subconscious.

using masterbeato as a reference point again, it took him about 4 months to be able to "hit it all the time," and he was keeping up a similar (although slightly toned down) practice regimen to what he used to learn it.

usually it's when your mind is still alert and your body is slightly tired that your body will actually slow down and shed its previous muscle memory allowing you to make changes at a and work at a pace that suits your body. however, if you wait until the point of exhaustion both physically and mentally, you won't be able to do anything well after that point.


Oh, I am under no illusion that this will be easy to keep up or that it will take no more practice. I'm as determined as anyone to get this down and to become that skinny little 500' thrower... :lol:

Today was really windy, so I couldn't get an accurate representation, but I was throwing some around 400', but a lot were getting beat by the wind. I was getting mixed results in the feel, but probably 4/10 had a really good feel. By the end of the session today, my hands were really tired and could barely grip the disc hard.

Again, I really feel that if you were to sticky your post I quoted in my above post, I think many more people will understand what is needed to get to that level. Right now, I think it's somewhat mysterious. Those previously involved in high level sports will understand it right away, but others will need it.

Just my $0.02.
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby tim » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:11 am

Blake,
I can take a stab at streamlining the existing advice. It may take a few days, but I think I've got the background and writing skills to bring it together. I just don't want to duplicate the work someone else is doing if it's already in progress. So if someone is halfway through some massive compilation right now, please let me know.

Thanks for all your advice. I got engaged recently and have been out of the disc golf scene (and the boards) the past 7-8 months. Missing it and want to start back in with a real focus on improved form, and many of the ideas in these threads are incredibly exciting. I'd definitely describe myself as part of the group that is "hitting it halfway," getting negligible distance improvements when moving from Teebirds to Bosses, but topping out with both at the distances you mention.

Figure this summer is my last chance to really get these principles figured out, as I doubt married life, starting in the fall, will allow the same freedom of schedule. So it's now or never to get the fundamentals down to really compete at a pro level. I want to be one of those guys who has such solid game and muscle memory that they can play once a month and still shoot 1000+ rated golf, and I know it's possible.

Anyway, I'll see what I can pull together, again, assuming it's not already well under way from another board member.
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby MrScoopa » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:24 am

I really don't want you to get burned out Blake! I am writing about timing as I see it right now. dreldford98 got the first paragraph and it has helped him, so that is a good sign. I know there are a few things that haven't clicked for me on the personal level, but it will.

Maybe there isn't a magical way to learn snap. Just like there isn't a magical way to be the best 3-point shooter. It takes dedication. You have to want it bad.

Out of probably 50 or so locals that come to the weekly singles 2 have it(at least 460'. They barely look like they are trying). Another 10 half hit it(~400), and have been half hitting it for as long as I've been out there. The rest are in the good fundamentals\"disc to the moon group"(max 350'). I'm in the middle group most of the time, but have stuck my feet in the magical waters a few times. What a rush, I might add, to be able to do that. Going from 250' to throwing as far as the top 10% in my town. Thanks to the guys here.

My wife thinks I am bonkers. All I have talked about for the past year is form, and now this mysterious force called snap! :lol: But, she sees the improvement. It's not every day you go out, have an epiphany at the end of the round, walk up to the teepad, and throw 50' further. I'm getting it. I worked all through the winter, before and after work, threw away rounds, got told "Why are you throwing like that? You threw better the other way." countless times. I simply was not happy with kissing 300 - 350 sometimes. I do that on a HORRIBLE day now.

Don't let it burn you out Blake. You are INVALUABLE to this community. You know that or you wouldn't be still here. There has been a recent upsurge in people starting to understand, and I know that is what brought you back to posting.

Thank you.
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Re: Compiling board posts into a coherent article

Postby MrScoopa » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:26 am

Figure this summer is my last chance to really get these principles figured out, as I doubt married life, starting in the fall, will allow the same freedom of schedule. So it's now or never to get the fundamentals down to really compete at a pro level. I want to be one of those guys who has such solid game and muscle memory that they can play once a month and still shoot 1000+ rated golf, and I know it's possible.


Hey now! Marriage doesn't have to be a cage! :lol:

"hey sweetie, I'm going to go and throw in the field for a few hours, when I get back how does margaritas and a massage sound?" :P
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