Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby black udder » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:00 pm

drledford93 wrote:Quick question, Bradley--I noticed today that when the disc ripped out of my hand, it ripped the hardest off my pinky. (I throw with the ring stacked on the pinky for strength using the power grip.) Is this robbing snap and power? As I wrote to you, I've made a massive jump, but I know I'm losing power somewhere else and this is the one thing I can clearly see that you point out in your video.

Thoughts? Should I stop stacking the ring/pinky and focus that energy on the thumb/index pinch? This hammer technique has added soooooooo much power and spin on my throws, it's not funny...it's amazing!

Daniel


Try putting the tips of your fingers all against the inside rim, with the first index joint resting against the bottom of the flight plate. You wouldn't think the disc would ever come out, but it does.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby Redisculous » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:02 pm

Sounds scary. I'm gonna go try it right now :)
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby ManU » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:20 pm

I swear this is the grip suggested in the fundamentals video
I have always had the pads of my fingers against the rim but it looks like they suggest a power grip of actual tips against the rim (such that the tops of your knuckles would be against the flight plate)

I have not yet thrown with it...but hope to try this weekend

(note that Feldberg suggests the modification...pinky and index fingers being pads and middle 2 fingers being tips)
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:38 pm

black udder wrote:Try putting the tips of your fingers all against the inside rim, with the first index joint resting against the bottom of the flight plate. You wouldn't think the disc would ever come out, but it does.


I have tried this prior to my breakthrough, but I'll try it again. Can never hurt, right? :D
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby black udder » Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:35 pm

drledford93 wrote:
black udder wrote:Try putting the tips of your fingers all against the inside rim, with the first index joint resting against the bottom of the flight plate. You wouldn't think the disc would ever come out, but it does.


I have tried this prior to my breakthrough, but I'll try it again. Can never hurt, right? :D


I was throwing with the pads of my fingers and I'd get a rip off my middle finger all the time. I can't say that this is going to add distance, but the disc doesn't slip as easily. I find when I use this grip that I grip lock a lot more and I have to be conscious of stopping the elbow while my shoulder is pointed towards the target instead of not worrying about it. If I let my torso rotate, then I get a late release every time. I feel that when I keep a close pull and throw properly, then I do get a better throw.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:06 pm

black udder wrote:I was throwing with the pads of my fingers and I'd get a rip off my middle finger all the time. I can't say that this is going to add distance, but the disc doesn't slip as easily. I find when I use this grip that I grip lock a lot more and I have to be conscious of stopping the elbow while my shoulder is pointed towards the target instead of not worrying about it. If I let my torso rotate, then I get a late release every time. I feel that when I keep a close pull and throw properly, then I do get a better throw.


I also got a "grip lock" or a "late release" when I used this grip before. However, my timing and throws were back-asswards as is documented on this board. :mrgreen:

I went back out and threw some more drives this evening. On some of my max drives, I was getting somewhere between 390-410' with a stong tailwind. Nothing would flip, including my flippiest stuff. My form didn't feel the best, so I'm discounting it a bit. I am using a run up and am still getting 3 or 4 out of 10 that feel pretty good. Now, it's the timing of the pinch that's costing me power and D. When I get it right, my preds go almost as far as my flippy distance discs (375').

Have any of you guys seen the need to change/tweak your grip when you have found a jump in distance and power? If so, what did you go from and to?
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby JR » Thu Apr 29, 2010 10:35 pm

drledford93 wrote:
Bradley Walker wrote:Focus on the thumb locking to the index AND middle finger. Focus on the thumb bearing down. The finger pressure is static.


This is something I must work on. When I grip the disc, the pinky area feels REALLY tight (without bearing down), but my thumb and index finger grip, even bearing down, is not tight enough. As I said, I'm working on my grip strength. However, I must find another way around that.

Ah, I just noticed something--you said finger pressure is static. So, at the hit, you're ONLY increasing the thumb/index finger lock pressure? NOT the entire grip pressure? That may be part of my problem...

USAnarchy's grip (lining up the disc between the middle and ring fingers) led to a tighter grip, but that caused a bad blister on my palm.


Bradley and anybody else with experience of static index and middle plus the less important fingers pressure what is the reason for you not squeezing the rim and the leading edge of the disc against the base of the index finger or lower depending on the disc orientation in your hand? Have you tried index finger squeezing and if you have why didn't you stick with it? What kind of D and spin changes have you had with just the thumb pressure increase? When do you begin pushing down with the thumb?

I've gotten better results and average and top D from mostly harder index finger finger print toward the base of the index finger tightening. For wide winged discs that I can't wrap my stubby fingers around to grip with the tips of the fingers. I suspect that my thumb hasn't improved that much probably because of injuries. I've done equal amounts of weight training with the thumb and the index finger so power ain't an issue. Getting the thumb to push may be a leverage and subconscious injury prevention issue. I have trained finger strength less with middle finger but that too for the sake of completeness and insurance. Glad I have. Gotta try out that index plus middle finger rip. More grip power should help as long as there's no grip lock. I just can't grip many discs well enough due to finger shortness.

From grip strength perspective I'd think that anything just short of a grip lock is good so adding power to the thumb lock pinch should help to increase grip power>distance. Therefore I'd guess that pinching with the index finger maybe a little less with the middle finger and bearing down with the thumb all together would help. If index and middle finger pinch power increase occurs as the wrist is opening. So as to not tension up the forearm slowing down the throw won't become a problem.

Banjar there's no choice but to use the finger print or as you said the opposite side of the finger from the nail to gripping wide rimmed discs. Discs that are close to or less than the length of your index finger middle section in wing width are the ones that you have a chance of gripping with the tips of the fingers. The blistering and pain can come from not being accustomed to the forces thus having too thin and soft skin and that takes some months to develop. provided you don't retear the skin all the time but let it heal now and limit practice to not breaking the skin later on. Or your grip strength isn't hard enough in the end of the throw and the disc slips dragging along the finger which really accelerates getting blisters. Slipped throws can really cut down the amount of throws you can make per day vs ripped throws while not breaking your skin. Ripped throw means the disc to skin separation is virtually instantaneous and slip means several centimeters of sliding across the skin. Think sand paper.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby mark12b » Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:09 pm

Banjar wrote:Pardon my drawing skills..The positions are definitely off from what is optimal, which also goes for my form. I was not trying to make an accurate depiction of my body when i drew this, it was more to illustrate what I felt happening (very subjective). I think you are right though, for 1) chest is at the bottom, and 3, it is probably supposed to be perpendicular to the upper arm, and the velocity arrow on the disc should probably be pointing down at almost vertical.. but again, this is just a subjective drawing.

No prob, wasn't criticizing the drawing, just trying to understand it. Makes sense that the body is rotating between 1 and 3 (if it was already rotated in 1 that would be a very weird position). Actually I think it does a great job of showing the problem and how half the battle is getting the body out of the way of itself.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:59 am

(From the compilation thread, Mark12b wrote:)

man, for me *that* was the key. slip vs. rip. how do i keep it from slipping forward. gotta lock that pivot point and do a hard-to describe little move. bingo! i'm feeling something totally different now, a strong "fling" factor around the lock point. i can see how the different motions and positions are there to let you (a) execute this little move, (b) direct its energy forward, and (c) amplify it. i can do (a) from a standstill but it's pretty wild still. when i work on (b) i can feel slip creeping in. i can totally feel how you need "grip strength" to resist the rip, but not a "strong grip" that clenches the disc the whole time.

i haven't really had a chance to try this new feeling outdoors yet but when i do i'll post back. (to the 300ft thread, which i think i may have busted out of) :-)[/quote]

I am right there with you. I just broke through the 400' barrier a few days ago by using BW's hammer technique. I find that my rip point is (I think) my pinky, rather than my index finger. I think I'm losing a bit of power because of it. Plus, I haven't gotten the timing of the pinch down. (I also just realized that you DON'T tighten your whole grip, just the pinch. Big diff.)

I really think once both of us get the whole grip thing down, we could add 50-75' to our drives. I'd love to be at 500' by the end of the summer...wahoo! :shock:
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby Parks » Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:58 pm

There's a way that I've found to build up to the snap feel of the right pec drill.

Basically, if people aren't feeling some snap with the right pec drill, its usually because their elbow and forearm are doing something counterproductive, so the idea is to isolate the wrist.

Get in a comfortable, loaded feeling right pec position, but instead of extending your forearm just keep the arm in this closed position and with the wrist anchored close to the right pec.

Then do your 1-step or no-step weight shift and "chicken-wing" the disc. You're only cranking the wrist, and not opening the arm at all. You should get a pseudo-snap feel and the disc should spin fast out of your hand. It will probably do something like dive right into the ground and you will feel retarded, but velocity and accuracy are not the point of this drill. All you need to do is get that snap feel down. If you can't get it with a disc, get the feel with a towel first and then do it with the disc.

Once you can get the feel for it every time, start extending your forearm a little bit and trying to keep that same crank at the end. If you can keep the feel, extend the forearm more each time until you have a full finish while feeling it. This is now the right pec drill. This feel is somewhat akin to real snap, and will you help you with the timing and what you need to do at the right time. It won't help with the acceleration leading up to all this, but it should give you something to practice with your full stroke.

Let me know if this makes sense and if it helps anyone. Or shoot me down if I'm wrong.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:08 pm

Parks--I'll try your "chicken wing" technique to see what happens. I'll let you know in a few minutes... :D

EDIT: Wow! I could throw my wraith 100'+ with your method, Parks! Holy shniekes, Batman! I was expecting a few yards, but that thing went with serious force. I definitely felt a pop off my index finger lock and it felt like it did when I threw and got my TBs out to 425'. Thanks for that tip!

When I started to use BW's hammer throw, it really felt A LOT more like snap. Plus, I got most things out to 400'+. Great feeling.

One question I do have that I know is a problem with me is what BW calls the "outward pull." Is this the part of the pull that people talk about when they say to "elbow a midget..." or something like that? I noticed this little aspect when I watched his vid again tonight that I hadn't seen before. It looked like he was actively accelerating his elbow after the apex. I don't think I'm doing this and as I said before, this is where I think I'm losing a lot of power here.

Maybe I haven't seen it, but are there any tricks to help increase the speed of the outward pull? Just curious. If not, you'll be able to find me at the practice field... :lol:

Thanks!

Daniel
Last edited by patdabunny on Sat May 01, 2010 1:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby Star Shark » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:17 pm

It's been repeated many times but here's good info on grip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28ABf6csQpM

As to the outward pull, yes, this is where acceleration helps alot. You want to absolutely hit the disc with every ounce of speed and grip force you can at the apex. Markus Kallstrom demonstrates this the best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhQzVIX4cVs
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:10 pm

Animix wrote:As to the outward pull, yes, this is where acceleration helps alot. You want to absolutely hit the disc with every ounce of speed and grip force you can at the apex. Markus Kallstrom demonstrates this the best.


I think I had this all wrong. Basically, you're accelerating your elbow through the hit and not your shoulders, right? Not your hand, but your elbow? To me, it seems there's a big difference.

One more question that I haven't found an answer to. For those of us who weren't endowed with Mercurial-type arm speed, is there a way to increase the speed of the outward pull? That seems to be a difficult thing for me to improve. It feels very awkward when I try and speed this up (almost like my arm is going to outpace the disc!).

I'm currently trying to practice it but if there is another, better way, I'm all ears! Thanks.

Daniel
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby Bradley Walker » Sun May 02, 2010 10:41 am

Animix wrote:It's been repeated many times but here's good info on grip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28ABf6csQpM

As to the outward pull, yes, this is where acceleration helps alot. You want to absolutely hit the disc with every ounce of speed and grip force you can at the apex. Markus Kallstrom demonstrates this the best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhQzVIX4cVs



Those vids are amazing!!!

If you really look... Nate Doss is the best "snap thrower" of the bunch. He perfectly demonstrates the optimum snap motion that we have been discussing. He actually throws with something like 85% snap.

Boy's lost some weight too... Getting lean.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Sun May 02, 2010 11:17 am

As you mentioned Doss, I really went back and studied his form. It looks like he REALLY, SEVERELY bends his elbow, almost to max flexion. From that position, you really don't have to accelerate the elbow an extreme amount to get a helluva fast hand (when the forearm comes forward), right? This isn't to say you don't have to accelerate, it's just not nearly as fast or as hard as I was thinking. I know Blake was probably pulling his hair out telling me to stop the hips to stop the elbow to facilitate the above.

I have been practicing the hula hoop analogy (mentioned earlier in this thread...a post of BW's) and it has really helped in me visualizing things in my throw. Still can't practice, as I'm busy building the Ark here (we've had 4" of rain in 2 days). Once I can I am really hoping to see some difference.

Thanks again, Bradley. Your stuff has really helped me and a bunch of others around here. If you're ever up KY way, let me know. I'd feed you and give you a good place to sleep for a personal lesson! :D
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