Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby JR » Sun May 02, 2010 11:34 am

Bradley Walker wrote:
Animix wrote:It's been repeated many times but here's good info on grip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28ABf6csQpM

As to the outward pull, yes, this is where acceleration helps alot. You want to absolutely hit the disc with every ounce of speed and grip force you can at the apex. Markus Kallstrom demonstrates this the best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhQzVIX4cVs



Those vids are amazing!!!

If you really look... Nate Doss is the best "snap thrower" of the bunch. He perfectly demonstrates the optimum snap motion that we have been discussing. He actually throws with something like 85% snap.

Boy's lost some weight too... Getting lean.


The lower link was edited by mafa and shot by me at Tali Open and President's Cup hole 17 2009. President's Cup vids were the last ones my Casio EX-F1 took before breaking down.

Look at how fast Markus accelerates in the last inches of the throw. He's faster than others in normal speed when he is slowed down in the footage. Jesper Lundmark has some wicked angles spinning the disc. After the elbow bend he's got the most angles geared toward spinning the disc. That is the hammer head throwing analogy Bradley has demonstrated. Linus Åström has the most power coming from the non throwing arm. That is half a misnomer because he swings so hard with the left arm that he basically throws himself rotationally right and a little back to front :-D Great talent in these vids so thank you thank you thank you players in the videos!!!
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Sun May 02, 2010 11:38 am

JR wrote:The lower link was edited by mafa and shot by me at Tali Open and President's Cup hole 17 2009. President's Cup vids were the last ones my Casio EX-F1 took before breaking down.


Thank you for that! It is some seriously helpful and amazing footage! :D
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby JR » Sun May 02, 2010 11:39 am

Check out the other vids mafa made in youtube as well with the account mfranssila for other goodies from last year.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Sun May 02, 2010 11:47 am

JR wrote:Check out the other vids mafa made in youtube as well with the account mfranssila for other goodies from last year.


Will do!

Who is who on the vid (the Euro players)? Jesper is the last and Markus is the first, right? Which are the others?

It almost looks like in Jesper's throw that the disc "bounces" on the reachback in almost a sine wave that culminates with the disc hitting his forearm just before the release, what BW talks about. This is what I found in making a recent jump in D. Keeping the head of the hammer in as long as possible made the disc RIP out of my hand like it had never done before. I just stood there when I did it wiping the dirt off my chin after picking it up off the gound! :lol: Simply amazing.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby JR » Sun May 02, 2010 11:56 am

drledford93 wrote:
JR wrote:Check out the other vids mafa made in youtube as well with the account mfranssila for other goodies from last year.


Will do!

Who is who on the vid (the Euro players)? Jesper is the last and Markus is the first, right? Which are the others?

It almost looks like in Jesper's throw that the disc "bounces" on the reachback in almost a sine wave that culminates with the disc hitting his forearm just before the release, what BW talks about. This is what I found in making a recent jump in D. Keeping the head of the hammer in as long as possible made the disc RIP out of my hand like it had never done before. I just stood there when I did it wiping the dirt off my chin after picking it up off the gound! :lol: Simply amazing.


Well put on Jesper's arm motion.

At 1:05 the guy in the red shirt is Linus Åström SWE a junior world champion. 2:38 white shirt is Jesper Lundmark SWE a multiple time number one rated player in the world. In the beginning the guy in the green shirt is Markus Källström SWE two time second place finisher at worlds and usually the farthest throwing player on golf courses in the world. Only recently been challenged by Avery Jenkins and maybe David Wiggings Jr.

I now think that some of the footage was shot by mafa.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby Banjar » Sun May 02, 2010 12:30 pm

drledford93 wrote: One question I do have that I know is a problem with me is what BW calls the "outward pull." Is this the part of the pull that people talk about when they say to "elbow a midget..." or something like that? Daniel


Yeah, I am struggling with the midget-smashing analogy - being a very peaceful person, it doesnt really trigger my body the right way :wink: . I would love to hear other ideas for mental images that facilitate the right elbow stopping -> accelerating movement.

I'm going to try out Parks chickenwing throw next time i get out on the field.
Bradley Walker wrote: If you really look... Nate Doss is the best "snap thrower" of the bunch. He perfectly demonstrates the optimum snap motion that we have been discussing. He actually throws with something like 85% snap.

I've never really studied his form in detail, but I just noticed something that made me very excited! He pulls the disc towards him at an angle rather than pulling it "past your chest in a straight line" as I've been told numerous times to do! I try to pull in a straight line from the reachback towards my target, often resulting in me rotating to early and pulling the disc around my chest in a windmill kind of motion, as seen in my video critique thread . With Nate's pull line, you have to stand there and wait for the disc to come into your chest before you can start the second part of the shoulder rotation! I think this might be they key for me to unlock the next level in my throw.

/Kristian
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby JR » Sun May 02, 2010 12:52 pm

Banjar wrote:
drledford93 wrote: One question I do have that I know is a problem with me is what BW calls the "outward pull." Is this the part of the pull that people talk about when they say to "elbow a midget..." or something like that? Daniel


Yeah, I am struggling with the midget-smashing analogy - being a very peaceful person, it doesnt really trigger my body the right way :wink: . I would love to hear other ideas for mental images that facilitate the right elbow stopping -> accelerating movement.

I'm going to try out Parks chickenwing throw next time i get out on the field.
Bradley Walker wrote: If you really look... Nate Doss is the best "snap thrower" of the bunch. He perfectly demonstrates the optimum snap motion that we have been discussing. He actually throws with something like 85% snap.

I've never really studied his form in detail, but I just noticed something that made me very excited! He pulls the disc towards him at an angle rather than pulling it "past your chest in a straight line" as I've been told numerous times to do! I try to pull in a straight line from the reachback towards my target, often resulting in me rotating to early and pulling the disc around my chest in a windmill kind of motion, as seen in my video critique thread . With Nate's pull line, you have to stand there and wait for the disc to come into your chest before you can start the second part of the shoulder rotation! I think this might be they key for me to unlock the next level in my throw.

/Kristian


Doing from out to in then forward arm pull is faster than straight line but more accident prone and at first inconsistent. Getting the two part torso rotation and the pause in between is a great thing and if this arm pull line helps teaching it fine.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby JR » Sun May 02, 2010 3:49 pm

I gotta state my preference for thin discs for gripping in non Jenkins grip manner while trying to force the nose below the rear of the disc at any apex height. And with the few attempts at Jenkins grip toward masterbeato grip hybrid my little hand and stubby fingers were getting around the wide wing of a Startana easier than a Nuke. I had too little space to try the Jenkins grip. Too bad that in the fairly stiff rear wind both discs are too LSS for me. Gusts were up to 30 MPH. Mostly staying under 15 MPH. An interesting repeatable phenomenon was the higher lift of the much domier Nuke at high speeds rising more initially but falling faster at lower speeds also fading more than the flat Startana. Both going far only about 7' of difference in favor of the Startana that flew straighter. The Nuke is 5 grams lighter so it may explain something.

Man I wish had a 167 Protana to compare to the 175 Startana which was too LSS for my power in rear winds for absolute max D. I got roughly the same D on very low line drives as low line drives and golf and max D S-curves. Odd. I also noticed something I've never experienced with wide rimmed discs before. I got as far with full run up approach form eyes on the target as with full reach back. I did notice a lesser final snap acceleration power on most back to target reach backs. Even those full reach back throws that were well snapped still flew the same D. No matter if the disc was nose flat or nose below rear. I think the wind set the limit to D for me this time for those discs. Strongly suggesting Nukes and full weight Startanas being too much for me for handling every situation.

I was getting 380' all the time into a 2' rise in the ground for three hours. Skips would've been long. I was giving more active wrist opening than ever before but probably failing some on the wrist locking. Trying to lock the wrist well right of neutral. Squeezing so hard that I'm missing skin in the thumb and the index finger is a little swollen and sore internally. Not just your usual pad skin tenderness but whole length concentrated in the innermost third of the finger in the tendons.

I couldn't get my Gator released flat any farther than Rhynos or Spikes. The Gator just hyzers out fast in stiff rear winds. I got to 300' several times with the Rhyno and 307' with a Spike once. Maybe the tall profile of the broken in Champ Rhyno helped it sail farther on average than the Spike. Which despite the rear wind is changing hyzer and snap requirement quickly at that power. Even with the ease of grip from the thin profile. Lucky me Rhynos and Wizards aren't a problem to release well for me now as long as I don't go for steep nose down. Well I actually left that training for drivers almost completely.

The Grip line max weight new Spike penalizes hard with hyper spin if you get it turned over. Even with 15' high throws a three degree anny can stay annied to the ground if the nose is down. And with nose and rear at the same level similar height throw with the same anny flexes out only a little before landing. I got 30'-50' movements to the right with just a degree or two changes to those 3 degree annies. 30' being the minimum for 3 degree anny snapped as hard as I could.

I was surprised by Wizards gliding to almost the same distance as Spikes. This hasn't happened in calm weather. Only if we'd get calm conditions for further testing. I also wish for a primo plastic durable ad less slick Ringer than current Pro D. This slim disc is almost as easy to grip as Spike/XD and is very much helpfully more HSS without being overly LSS at all at this power/snap level. Last summer it faded way too much for me. Progress yay! Normal tackiness or better equally stiff ESP or Z Ringer would force me to hoard them for life probably and would kick the Spike out of workhorse driver putter duty. Provided equal stability is maintained to current Pro D Ringer.

Added power/snap has obviously come at a price of needing more HSS discs for repeatability concerns of pushing the Spike beyond it's safe limits. And I do want to drive at full tilt with putters for range control purposes on my short home course. That eats up even the hardest of plastics. Not early acceleration full tilt drives but full speed run up and maximum late acceleration after a moderate arm motion into right pec position for putter drives thank you. Just like using distance drivers actually. Ringer can handle that with a flat release getting to 280' average on a calm day and sinking like a rock unlike Rhyno in stiff rear winds. I got the Ringer in minimal rear wind to 320' once on another day. No dropping from the sky problem then.

Am I in trouble or what regarding driving putter choice? I think I've broken in that single C Rhyno sufficiently for straightish performance usable in most places except perhaps where it counts. My home course. Grrr. There some places benefit from fadeless flight but are too short for Buzzz/Comet/broken in Roc flight with a chance of blow bys from skips especially. Steep drops near many fairways. DX XD is fitting the bill in both HSS, though marginally and Ringer HSS would be better, and LSS and being way too easily damaged like the D Ringer that is much more HSS not needing initial hyzer for flat fight. Making it nicer for controlled small increment change in landing place anhyzer work. Lets just say that many discs in putters are straight in JFC but there are wild variations between them in practice in different wind conditions. The perfect putter driver for all conditions hasn't arrived in my hand yet. Therefore I need to stick to pigly and straight putter driver combo in the future. Piggish is easy but man it's difficult to pick a straight putter with user error torque/wind change resistance now with current power. In wider fairways and without hazards near the green powering down on Spikes and mids would be a viable option but bot in these fairways. I don't want situational bag selections but being able to tackle any course with a single bag no mater what the wind and temperature and moisture conditions are. With durable discs. No joy in finding such a setup.

Never did I think there was such a time for me to find out that I get so much power and snap that it brings new troubles. So snap ain't the silver bullet solving every problem after all :-) I'm getting slowly accustomed to distance control by not just disc selection when Rhynos and VPs blow by on drives on some holes. And cleanly thrown putter drives need more HSS discs than my preference for, and local hole demanded, minimal LSS requirements are for existing discs. Sigh. Do I really need to start manipulating every shot in several ways to handle every situation? Help disc manufacturers!!! Of course I can and could choose to do so but consistency will necessarily lessen when there are more things to consider and more to fail at. While forcing discs to perform things at or beyond their safe levels. And against their natural tendencies. I'd rather have the safety margin, not crutch, of the disc handling a part of the workload instead of me doing complex aiming calculations. Which in itself brings a new bad error source into shot planning and possibly even making.

There's always something new to learn and with new gains new problems arise as well.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby jubuttib » Sun May 02, 2010 4:22 pm

JR wrote:The text equivalent of the Great Wall of China.

... I see where you got your rank...

Still, great stuff, as always.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby JR » Sun May 02, 2010 4:38 pm

That's nothing compared to my longer posts I just needed to write quickly so I can go to sleep :-D And the rank name/joke (OAT) was my idea and coming from the OT forum of this site. At least this post was on topic.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby josser » Sun May 02, 2010 11:15 pm

Banjar wrote:I've never really studied his form in detail, but I just noticed something that made me very excited! He pulls the disc towards him at an angle rather than pulling it "past your chest in a straight line" as I've been told numerous times to do! I try to pull in a straight line from the reachback towards my target, often resulting in me rotating to early and pulling the disc around my chest in a windmill kind of motion, as seen in my video critique thread . With Nate's pull line, you have to stand there and wait for the disc to come into your chest before you can start the second part of the shoulder rotation! I think this might be they key for me to unlock the next level in my throw.

/Kristian


Jesper throws like this as well. His reach back is quite a bit out from his chest (and back}). I have a lot of trouble with my aim when I do this, but I do find that this change of direction at the front pec increases the incidental cocking of the wrist that comes with the elbow chop. Mind you my elbow barely chops which is why I probably notice a big difference with the back and away reach back.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby Star Shark » Sun May 02, 2010 11:32 pm

Barry does this angled reach back also. Dunno how it affects your accuracy but none of these guys are hurting for D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb7hqpMjsSg#t=0m57s
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Mon May 03, 2010 6:34 am

Animix wrote:Barry does this angled reach back also. Dunno how it affects your accuracy but none of these guys are hurting for D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb7hqpMjsSg#t=0m57s


I asked Bradley about this, but haven't heard back. I figure if you just aim your shoulder a little left of target, then that will put the disc on the line it needs. It seems very effective in getting the disc to the right pec.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby sunspot » Mon May 03, 2010 12:29 pm

Animix wrote:Barry does this angled reach back also. Dunno how it affects your accuracy but none of these guys are hurting for D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb7hqpMjsSg#t=0m57s


It could possibly help in facilitating the transition from linear to rotational pull. I'm not sure. I do believe that it could leave room for OAT and inaccuracy.

Regardless, they still follow the same body positions from the right pec onward.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby MrScoopa » Mon May 03, 2010 2:50 pm

I'd just like to give a thanks to everyone that has taken the time to explain snap. Blake_T, Masterbeato, Bradley, JHern, JR, and everyone else that has contributed to the technique session. I don't know how you guys do it. Answering the same questions all the time, trying to wrack your brains to help explain something to someone else that you already understand. You could just walk away, but you don't.

Thank you guys. I know I say thanks at the end of all my posts, but I wanted to do a deliberate thank you without a question attatched.

I could not have gotten this without your help. It's nice to have people that are as passionate about this stuff as I am. I know you also get the blank, wide eyed stares, when you start nerding out about form around certain folks :shock: :lol:

Anyways, what has spurred all these shenanigans is the fact that not only do I snap now, but I know how I snap. Not to discourage anyone, but it is so freaking easy once you understand how you are doing it! Putting it into words is a whole different adventure. Hell, even showing it in person can be hard.

Thanks Blake for that post that got me writing, organizing my ideas, discovering things I missed before, and thinking even harder on the subject. Even though I can't quite convey it all in my own words yet.

My stubbornness is what kept me from it for so long. Then, back in January, I let my ego go. I wasn't improving doing the same old shit, and began just following all the drills. That is how I got snap even before I really knew what was going on.

So many things clicked when I got it. I had all this information stored, because I have probably read everything on this site at least once :D

I'd start listing, but this post is long enough!

For anyone working on their form: When you are having a bad day, thinking you'll never get, just go to my Youtube channel. I'm healthy but uncoordinated, and think I'm always right. So, if I can figure this stuff out you can too. Not that I've got it all figured out, I just understand what I've been doing for the last few months incidentally by following the drills here :wink:
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