Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Mon May 03, 2010 3:33 pm

MrScoopa wrote:Anyways, what has spurred all these shenanigans is the fact that not only do I snap now, but I know how I snap.

I'm glad you've got it down pretty well! I'm happy for you!

MrScoopa wrote: Not to discourage anyone, but it is so freaking easy once you understand how you are doing it!

I made a step, but keeping the consistency is hard. I know kinda what to do, but when it doesn't happen, I don't know exactly what's going on. Then I start from the basics (no run up) and go from there. I hope I make your transition soon!

MrScoopa wrote:I wasn't improving doing the same old shit, and began just following all the drills.


What drills are you talking about, specifically? Anything you can point to directly? I'll definitely check out your youtube channel! :D
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby MrScoopa » Mon May 03, 2010 4:44 pm

I made a step, but keeping the consistency is hard. I know kinda what to do, but when it doesn't happen, I don't know exactly what's going on. Then I start from the basics (no run up) and go from there. I hope I make your transition soon!


That is exactly what I did and still do. If I don't have it I go to my standstill where I first felt it.

The transition was just an epiphany - an "ah ha!" moment. I was reading through this post, had an idea, got up, and tried to snap the towel. Before I wouldn't always have the acceleration (The towel pointing straight out at the hit, no loud popping). I'd get it sometimes but other time i'd miss it and not know why. What clicked was the WHY I was not hitting it. It was only mistimed acceleration. I've been on the trail of this for a good month.

Now, I can hit it a good 9 times out of 10. This unlocked another trail to follow though! Hitting it harder. Like when you snap the towel and it sounds literally like I just hit the wall. A loud CRISP pop like a whip makes. I practice a good distance away from all objects, so no actual wall was involved :)

This isn't all towel talk. I snap a towel like I throw, or else it'd be a fruitless exercise. I've been in a field, and the results are promising. Not anything crazy, but the confidence that I will hit it is more concrete now. I've hit it before, this is just incidental vs deliberate.

Also, less energy is wasted. I don't\can't at this point pull hard at all until the disc enters the apex. If I go too fast I miss the snap. I will be unable to create that drastic change in direction and speed on the pull back which would mean no snap. All I do right now is basically mimic the speed of my hip rotation until the disc is in the apex - then snap. As my timing gets more automatic I'll be able to add more speed to the first rotation giving me more power. Until then I've got enough late acceleration + snap to get my mids out to around 300'. Not a lot of D I know, but I'm barely moving, concentrating only on my timing. It feels impressive compared to the amount of energy and motion I actually put in.

I've developed some nose angle issues with my drivers so their distance is erratic. That's an easy fix once I start working on it :). I've changed to a 4 finger power grip because it reduced my slips, so I'm not real used to it yet.

You will drledford93, just become a little bit obsessed with figuring it out :D

What drills are you talking about, specifically? Anything you can point to directly? I'll definitely check out your youtube channel!


I don't have any drills of my own. I just follow the teachings here. It's all worded here in like 10 different forms. I meant it more as look at me from strong-arming king maxing at 250 8) to a more effortless thrower with much better form. I'll post new vids when I get my new camera.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby MrScoopa » Mon May 03, 2010 5:01 pm

Almost forgot. Why I would miss\hit it sometimes. I was zooming past the apex at constant speed\or pulling to hard before I got to it. Bradley's picture on the first page is exactly where it is. My shoulders are even approximately at that spot. It is a great drawing.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Mon May 03, 2010 5:28 pm

MrScoopa wrote:The transition was just an epiphany - an "ah ha!" moment. I was reading through this post, had an idea, got up, and tried to snap the towel. Before I wouldn't always have the acceleration (The towel pointing straight out at the hit, no loud popping). I'd get it sometimes but other time i'd miss it and not know why. What clicked was the WHY I was not hitting it. It was only mistimed acceleration. I've been on the trail of this for a good month.

Me too. I found the exact thing with the towel pop and am just now translating it into disc throwing. For some reason, it's a tough thing for my brain.

MrScoopa wrote:You will drledford93, just become a little bit obsessed with figuring it out :D


Could you not tell I'm obsessed with this? Man, I need to work on my stalker/obsessed fan skills... :lol:

As to the drills--I thought you had found drills that blake specifically put on this site for people to do. I guess it's all the stuff in the threads that we've talked about already...

Daniel
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby MrScoopa » Mon May 03, 2010 6:08 pm

As to the drills--I thought you had found drills that blake specifically put on this site for people to do. I guess it's all the stuff in the threads that we've talked about already...


It comes down to finding what you are lacking in your throw. I wasn't using the lower body effectively, and of course had no timing at that point.

You can use Blake's list:

before attempting to work snap you should:
1. have a sound, fundamental grip (wrist down, etc.)
2. be able to throw with shoulder rotation (not everyone does)
3. have a pull line that keeps the disc close to the body.
4. have no problems with getting your weight forward (unless you are content only throwing hyzers).
5. be able to throw without "strong arming" the disc.
6. be able to throw without jamming your pivot (aka allowing for yourself to clear the hip).
7. be able to throw without significant OAT.


I was having problems with points 4, 5, 6.

Once I had the 7 points snap was the natural progression. I'd have it on accident sometimes. Those accidents became more regular as I honed in on how I was doing it. A reasonably correct form was training me to do snap, if that makes any sense. When I 'd do it my throw was much better, thus positive reinforcement.

I only started to get those accidental snaps after I started to use my hips(JHern - breaking 300). Then the right pec drill\chicken wing throw started working. It is the oddest fricken thing. I can't snap a disc without hip rotation. I can make my arm do the same motions as the snap is just doesn't have the umph. Then reading all about snap. Its all works together. Find your missing links(if you have any).

Honestly drledford93, if you have all 7 points happening at the right time with a fluid motion you have it. You are just waiting for the understanding. Its been weird like flying but not knowing how you are doing it kinda thing. Its a comforting feeling to know how. So, its all a mental thing now. I think that is what Blake has been getting at with his latest posts. The last few plateau's are very much mental ones. Now my mind and body are talking on the same level. My brain caught up. Very Zen.

Could you not tell I'm obsessed with this? Man, I need to work on my stalker/obsessed fan skills... :lol:


I know a fellow obsessed person when I see one :P
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Mon May 03, 2010 6:28 pm

Cool. Thanks for the insight. I figure it will happen like you did. Last week did after watching BW's snap vids for the 3rd time. Got mad, went to the field and instantly added 50-75'.

I agree--it's mental. It'll just take time. I guess I can practice and wait 'til then... :D
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby Banjar » Mon May 03, 2010 7:41 pm

hey,

So I was sitting thinking about throwing discs as I always do from around 7am in the morning to 3am at night... I was thinking right peck drill, acceleration etc.. And the phrase how "the disc first pulls at your fingers before the launch." I'd never really felt that, so i pondered how that could be. Then I remembered what Bradley emphasizes in the video about keeping your hand on the opposite side of the disc.. witch in my mind means that the pull in the fingers comes from 'braking' the disc.. and then I got this idea:

I basically imagine a catapult sitting on the table with 3 springs that are 'just right' for the weight of the disc (do you see the parts bouncing? :wink: I do!).

Image
green= relaxed spring, blue=loaded spring, red=fully loaded.

I imagine (this is not the true motion of the disc obviously) that i "push" this disc into the 'pocket' (frame 4 - think Jesper Lundmark) with just the right amount of force to load the elbow and wrist springs fully. the disc looses its momentum and all that energy is transferred into the springs. The moment the elbow spring starts uncoiling, a rubber band attached to the right shoulder is released, pulling the shoulder back and at this point the shoulder spring gets as stiff as possible. Everything uncoils. at (7) I'm trying to illustrate how a very small movement of the pivot point translates into a massive acceleration of the center of gravity of the disc.

Am I close? I know the right peck position at 4 is somewhat exaggerated.. I am constantly looking for analogies that can mimic the right feeling of a throw.

What I failed to understand with the right peck drill is that at that moment, all my 'springs' are supposed to be coiled. I was always starting from 'feeling relaxed'. Maybe I am wrong, if so please let me know and I'll remove this illustration.

/K
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby black udder » Mon May 03, 2010 8:21 pm

I think the shoulders between 4/5 stay the same. When the forearm moves, then the shoulders come around. Otherwise, yeah. Looks like that's it from my understanding.

The right pec drill is supposed to get you used to pulling as hard/fast as you can from that position. Then, when you reach back and pull into the right pec position, it's a familiar place to pull hard/fast. That versus not doing the drill and trying to figure out when to pull.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby JR » Mon May 03, 2010 11:23 pm

Good direction of thinking in the good picture but I'd say these things are different IRL:

1 Shoulder is green.
2 Shoulder is green.
3/4 Transition shoulder turns to blue.
4 Is blueish red initially very quickly turning to red.
5 Needs to maintain the elbow roughly in the same position as 4 sharply decelerating the elbow while turning the shoulder backwards. So the upper arm arrow should point backward instead of right from the player perspective. In the picture the upper arm arrow needs to point to the left of the picture.
6 The elbow is changing to blue or already blue because the tension has already been released to a large degree. I'd also straighten the arm more toward the target and have the torso facing the target much more.
7 Forearm is pointed almost toward the target. Post wrist opening lacks a third picture in which the wrist is stopped almost in the same place (ideal world situation: Be stopped in the same place) as the opened position and the disc has pivoted toward the flight direction so that the thumb to disc contact is close to the rear of the disc. If 12 o'clock is the flight direction your opened wrist position has the thumb at 3 o'clock. After the disc pivots after the stopped wrist the thumb is at about 5 o'clock.

Conceptually it is better to think that you're throwing the away from the hand edge of the disc instead of the center line. Center line corresponds to trying to maximize spin forgetting the wrist action. And it's all in the wrist trying to spin the disc thus it's better to follow what the outside edge of the disc does. Outside being in pic 3 the upper edge of the whole picture. And that point can pivot about 250 degrees if you're a gorilla armed clamp finger to pic 7 in the post disc pivot image I described.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Tue May 04, 2010 11:51 am

I know the info been said before, but I wanted to relate a story that happened to me recently:

I could snap a towel with Feldberg's technique like no other. Loud enough to wake up my son across my house and with two doors closed. Then, it disappeared. I was frustrated. Then, I found it again and found what is making it snap. Three things. 1) Bend your knees and get in a powerful position with your legs. No straight, locked knees allowed. 2) Turn your hips quickly and stop them at 90 deg from target. Allow this to accelerate your arm passively. 3) Once at the right pec, accelerate the arm as fast as you can. It will snap EVERY time if you do that. No if, ands, or buts.

Now that I can see this clearly, I'm going to go back out to the practice field and see if I can incorporate this into my throws. I think that the breakthrough I had last week was that I was doing the above things plus adding BW's snap technique. I have had severe problems with getting my lower body into the throws, so hopefully this can help my throws.

Maybe also the above info can help someone else out there having problems or regressing like I did.

Daniel
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Tue May 04, 2010 7:29 pm

Bradley, JR, or anyone else that would like to comment--

I can now get 375' pretty regularly with a TB and no run up. Does this qualify as half hitting it, fully, or not so much so?

I'm continuing to practice in the field with TBs, but just curious about my progress. I really like a yardstick. This evening after doing some adjustments, I felt like I was hitting it more. The discs were really coming out much faster and I was able to keep most shots nose down. I've got work to do, but just curious. My run up only adds 20-25'. I know I have timing issues with a run up, so I'm keeping that out right now.

Thanks!

Daniel
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby black udder » Tue May 04, 2010 8:11 pm

wow. 375' with no run up should yield some serious accuracy and improve scoring a lot. I say that because 325' should be fairly easy then and you can focus on accuracy vs power. If you don't have to use a run up, then it's less to go wrong. Plus, on wet, slippery tee pads, you'll have a big advantage because you won't have to worry about your footing.

congrats.

FWIW - I've heard of folks throwing over 400' with no run up, so not sure where it puts you overall.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby JR » Tue May 04, 2010 9:44 pm

At that D you are my yardstick and should give me lessons :-) I'd say that's hitting it big time! One word of caution about slippery teepads and thinking you're safe throwing standstill -when it gets bad enough even stand stills can slip so bad that you fall when you throw hard. Raises hand. Not many can hit 375' with anything from stand still TB is kerrazy. You do need some muscle power to throw that far because speed comes from power. How tall are you and how many RPMs do you get with your Powerball and how much pinch power do you have? How fit are you?

I'd like a video from that kind of standstill shots and how a full run up looks. Should be nice indeed.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby black udder » Tue May 04, 2010 9:55 pm

yeah, JR, stand still isn't always 100% - I'm thinking of the Grange where tee pads can have water/puddles in spots, but you can find a nice dry area to stand in, just not to run through. So when I've played there, either after rain or in the rain, I've always been able to just stand and throw while other folks had to do their run ups and couldn't focus on their shot as much.
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Re: Snap 2009 (NEW video added)

Postby patdabunny » Wed May 05, 2010 5:38 am

black udder wrote:wow. 375' with no run up should yield some serious accuracy and improve scoring a lot. I say that because 325' should be fairly easy then and you can focus on accuracy vs power. If you don't have to use a run up, then it's less to go wrong. Plus, on wet, slippery tee pads, you'll have a big advantage because you won't have to worry about your footing.

congrats.

FWIW - I've heard of folks throwing over 400' with no run up, so not sure where it puts you overall.


Thanks! I think I somewhat incorporated the towel snap realization I had yesterday. I finally got my legs into the throw and stopped accelerating too early. You really can tell when you're doing it right and wrong.

Funny thing is that I played part of a round yesterday BEFORE making this realization and couldn't buy 375' worth of distance. My timing was soooooo far off. So, I got mad and had to figure it out and at least found something! :D

Thanks, guys!
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