Tuning a disc

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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Thu May 20, 2010 3:02 pm

Chuck, you do understand Ray's point that the rules do state that you can't do what you're doing, right? Like I said earlier, some sort of modification to the rule that allows tuning and disallows factoring would be best, but the reasoning that "it's been done since we laid out the rules" just isn't a good one.

No. I believe I've made it clear that the practice is accepted as legal by the actual people who have crafted these rules over the years. But it's faded from common practice among the cognoscenti with people converting to discs with the better plastic, especially for wooded holes where keeping a disc's flight consistent after repeated impacts is important.

I'm sure some of the RC were uncomfortable with the practice, had similar qualms about it as Ray and maybe didn't do it since they played wooded courses where their DX discs got beat quickly anyway. But as long as it's the player making a throw with a random strike, it was not seen as a direct manipulation of a specific part of a disc as in placing it in a vise.
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby Parks » Thu May 20, 2010 4:25 pm

veganray wrote:It would take some extremely finely calibrated equipment and a more-than-working knowledge of solid & planar geometry to take a solid disc with a circular projection, bend it, and keep a circular projection. Nobody could do it buy hand, either accidentally or on purpose.


Then every single disc in your bag is illegal, because none of them fit the bill of having a perfect "circular, saucer-like configuration" (GUIDELINES & PROCEDURES FOR MANUFACTURERS TO CERTIFY THAT EQUIPMENT COMPLIES WITH PDGA TECHNICAL STANDARDS, Section I.C.1)."
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby Parks » Thu May 20, 2010 4:30 pm

Timko wrote:Chuck, you do understand Ray's point that the rules do state that you can't do what you're doing, right?


The rule "This rule does not forbid inevitable wear and tear from usage during play" most certainly allows what Chuck is doing.

If you want to stretch out "usage during play" to not include this, then every disc that you've ever thrown on a practice field or outside of a round of disc golf is illegal due to the wear and tear from those throws.
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby veganray » Thu May 20, 2010 7:03 pm

homebrew wrote:What if my mom makes a post-production mod to my disc? She's definitely not a player.

Now we're getting somewhere. Me likey the outside-the-box thinking.
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby veganray » Thu May 20, 2010 7:10 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:I believe I've made it clear that the practice is accepted as legal by the actual people who have crafted these rules over the years.

So what? They have apparently crafted a rule that doesn't illustrate their intent. Not all of us have the luxury of picking the brains of these "framers of the Constitution", so everyone must rely on the words they have written to spell out the rules. The words they have written explicitly forbid what you claim they "accept as legal", so, if your claim is correct, the rule must be rewritten to correctly allow & forbid what they intend to allow & forbid.
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby veganray » Thu May 20, 2010 7:21 pm

Parks wrote:
Timko wrote:If you want to stretch out "usage during play" to not include this, then every disc that you've ever thrown on a practice field or outside of a round of disc golf is illegal due to the wear and tear from those throws.

I posit that any non-ridiculously-self-serving definition of "usage during play" would include field practice & practice on courses, and would not include intentionally throwing into a brick wall. If you prefer to expand the definition to allow for your preferred brand of cheating, though, you tell me where to draw the line, o sage one:
1) Intentionally throwing into a brick wall
2) Intentionally rolling over concrete
3) Intentionally throwing into a dog's mouth
4) Intentionally throwing into a chipper/shredder
5) Intentionally rolling into a vat of molten lead
6) Intentionally throwing into a hydraulic press
7) Form practice (w/o releasing the disc) into a sharp razor blade
8) Form practice (w/o releasing the disc) into a belt sander
9) Form practice (w/o releasing the disc) into a circular saw

You might want to slow down, Parks; I think you're getting in over your head. At least Chuck has the wise self-interest to attempt to divert the discussion into a wild goose chase when he's obviously pwnt.
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby JimW » Thu May 20, 2010 7:39 pm

veganray wrote:You know I'm keeping a database of all of y'all unrepentant disc-tuners (and other types of cheaters). If I ever see you on my card in a PDGA event, let the games begin!


I have used walls/trees/sidewalks/whatever to make my discs less stable in the past (and continue to do so when it serves my purposes). If I ever play against you there's a good chance I'll have at least one disc in my bag that has seen wear and tear through a method other than incidental contact with objects while playing a round or practicing. Good luck trying to prove which ones they may be (since they look just like any disc that has hit a bunch of stuff during a round).
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby mark12b » Thu May 20, 2010 9:00 pm

you tell me where to draw the line, o sage one:
1) Intentionally throwing into a brick wall
2) Intentionally rolling over concrete
3) Intentionally throwing into a dog's mouth
4) Intentionally throwing into a chipper/shredder
5) Intentionally rolling into a vat of molten lead
6) Intentionally throwing into a hydraulic press
7) Form practice (w/o releasing the disc) into a sharp razor blade
8 ) Form practice (w/o releasing the disc) into a belt sander
9) Form practice (w/o releasing the disc) into a circular saw

as far as i'm concerned any of those that don't alter the disc to be outside of it the its normal range of flight characteristics would be just fine. :twisted: and i don't feel like that attitude is at odds with the rules, which acknowledge that wear and tear can and do expand the range of flight characteristics beyond the limits of factory-fresh.

i've got some second-hand discs that are pretty beat up... i suppose i should call the old number and see if the other guy did it on purpose or not, since that could possibly make them illegal for pdga play?
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby ChUcK » Thu May 20, 2010 10:19 pm

homebrew wrote:What if my mom makes a post-production mod to my disc? She's definitely not a player.

Oh, I like it. That is my kind of rulebook lawyering. I wish I thought of it.
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby Redisculous » Thu May 20, 2010 11:56 pm

The rule's also don't state that you have to play disc golf with your discs. It just says normal wear and tear though play. So if I want to play red rover with my discs and a brick wall/tree/belt sander, or try to skip ace pedestrians while they cross the road, I believe that is my call to make.
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby Mark Ellis » Fri May 21, 2010 6:55 am

I just came across this topic and was quite entertained with the Chuck Kennedy/VeganRay exchange.

I was pleased to see Chuck Kennedy take the practical and common sense interpretation of this (or any) rule rather than the harshest technical reading possible. Good job, Chuck. I always thought there was hope for you. :D

I understand VeganRay's position that following rules has a moral component and agree with that principle on rules which affect the fairness of the game. On rules which do not affect the competitive balance of the game, I do not attach a moral implication.

So if you throw your disc in the bush, you can't move it out to give yourself a better shot. That is cheating since it gives you a better chance of winning. But if you were to carefully flip your disc rather than use a mini, although forbidden by the rules, it gives no competitive advantage and I don't view it as cheating-or even wrong.

When it comes to tuning discs, the only thing tuning affects is the stability of a disc. A tuned disc won't do anything a non-tuned disc will do. No magical or performance enhancing properties are imbued in a tuned disc. It is the same darn thing, just somewhat more flippy.

The down side of candy plastic is that it takes so long to break in. The up side of candy plastic is that it retains stability for so long. So it's greatest advantage is also it's disadvantage. But if any player can take that candy disc and bend it or smack it and beat me with it, I have no problem with that at all. I don't believe there is any reliable way to modify stability in a precise fashion. The best and surest way to break in a disc is with normal play. The harsher the break in process the greater the chance the disc becomes ruined or unpredictable. But if anyone thinks they can do it, more power to them.

If a player buys a new disc and throws it in a tournament it may not have his name written on it and it may still still have the little sticker price tag on it. I realize in some groups in some divisions the players will get all excited and pull out the rule books to see how much the guy can be stroked. In the old guy Pro division, no one will care. If he throws it under the basket someone might pick it up and offer a gimme. That approach to the rules is not technically accurate but it is more friendly and sportsmanlike. At the end of the tournament, whoever threw the best shots will win. Nothing immoral happened there.
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby Timko » Fri May 21, 2010 7:59 am

Mark Ellis wrote:When it comes to tuning discs, the only thing tuning affects is the stability of a disc. A tuned disc won't do anything a non-tuned disc will do. No magical or performance enhancing properties are imbued in a tuned disc. It is the same darn thing, just somewhat more flippy.


Epic? You can make that disc fly different directions by tuning it in different ways.

That's really my main point of contention. The Epic is made to be tuned (there's even a guide to tuning it on their website) to affect flight patters, which, to me, seems like post manufacturing modifications.
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby Timko » Fri May 21, 2010 8:00 am

I'm going to see if I can get some pics of the 2 Epics my buddy carries. Trust me, there's no way "normal wear and tear" could ever make discs look like this.
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby veganray » Fri May 21, 2010 8:04 am

The problem I see, Mark, is that folks who do their best to live up to the rule as written are at a competitive disadvantage to those who prefer the wink-wink interpretation. Maybe I can throw 400-foot pinpointers with an Epic that I tune to my taste, but I choose not to as the rule forbids it, leaving me with 325-foot sprayers with an untuned Epic or a Viper (or whatever). Someone who decides to ignore that rule (that can also throw 400-foot pinpointers with a tuned Epic) is at a competitive advantage by their flaunting of the rule. Same argument could be extended to force-beating discs by methods other than "inevitable wear and tear from usage during play".

I understand that it is tempting to give players very liberal interpretations of the rules, but they cannot be so liberal as to contradict the plain English wording of the rule or players with a strong moral compass who do their damnedest to follow the rules to a "T" (the very players who should be applauded & rewarded for their commitment) are put at an immediate competitive disadvantage. I couldn't give a rat's ass about tuning or force-beating, but the rule needs to be clear as to whether those actions are allowed or forbidden, so there is a level playing field for everybody who uses the rulebook as their guide to disc golf-related conduct. As a fluent English speaker, I see it as obvious that the rule as written forbids both; if the org wants to allow those actions, the rule needs rewriting.
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Re: Tuning a disc

Postby veganray » Fri May 21, 2010 8:09 am

JimW wrote:I have used walls/trees/sidewalks/whatever to make my discs less stable in the past (and continue to do so when it serves my purposes). If I ever play against you there's a good chance I'll have at least one disc in my bag that has seen wear and tear through a method other than incidental contact with objects while playing a round or practicing. Good luck trying to prove which ones they may be (since they look just like any disc that has hit a bunch of stuff during a round).

Knowing that, I could choose to try to prove which disc(s) you have cheated with & attempt to apply the appropriate penalty, or I could just work you so unmercifully (and believe you me, I can work with the all-time legends) that the effective net penalty would be way more than two throws. Or you could remove the illegal discs from your bag before play begins. It'd really be up to you.
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