Innova Mako

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Re: Innova Mako

Postby jubuttib » Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:20 am

<Nitpick>Mako's are definitely meant to be mega stable if the ratings are to be believed. What they aren't meant to be is overstable in any way.</Nitpick>
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby zj1002 » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:15 am

Billym wrote:
zj1002 wrote:domey champs are mega stable

The one non domey (flat) xout champ I tossed was pretty much like my FRs and 2nd runs (flat) straight no fade. The Domey Star (3rd run??) is way less stable. :roll:

Mega stable? For what? Makos are not supposed to be stable; how stable Rancho Roc stable?


I would say it is almost as stable as a 8/10 rancho. But it flies nothing like a Roc, so i don't want to compare it to that. I asked Dave D. on the PDGA boards if he thought the champ mako would be more stable. He said their goal was to make it slightly more stable than the stars.
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby jubuttib » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:27 am

zj1002 wrote:I asked Dave D. on the PDGA boards if he thought the champ mako would be more stable. He said their goal was to make it slightly more stable than the stars.

So... They're going to make it into the Coyote?
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby holyschemp » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:34 am

To revive comparisons, I've got an echo star light green Mako...somewhat domey. It really flies like a longer wizard for me on flat and hyzer lines. I unfortunately haven't thrown it on turnover or anhyzer shots. I am wondering though, isn't this essentially what a buzz does (I haven't thrown buzzes, just ordered a couple)
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby discspeed » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:05 am

holyschemp wrote:To revive comparisons, I've got an echo star light green Mako...somewhat domey. It really flies like a longer wizard for me on flat and hyzer lines. I unfortunately haven't thrown it on turnover or anhyzer shots. I am wondering though, isn't this essentially what a buzz does (I haven't thrown buzzes, just ordered a couple)


Straight is a throw rather than a disc. The Buzzz is different from the Mako in a couple of ways. Stability-wise, the Buzzz resists turn a little more and has a more consistent LSS. I think this is because the rim configuration on the Mako is more convex and so it keeps gliding a little more at lower speeds. This is good if you are trying to push your mids out there a little farther, but IME it is bad because pinpoint accuracy is tough. That convex rim is also problematic in the wind imo.
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby Billym » Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:00 am

jubuttib wrote:<Nitpick>Mako's are definitely meant to be mega stable if the ratings are to be believed. What they aren't meant to be is overstable in any way.</Nitpick>

How is 0 LSS mega stable? Pretty neutral rating 0 HSS/0 LSS.
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby NoLifeLeft » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:00 am

Billym wrote:
jubuttib wrote:<Nitpick>Mako's are definitely meant to be mega stable if the ratings are to be believed. What they aren't meant to be is overstable in any way.</Nitpick>

How is 0 LSS mega stable? Pretty neutral rating 0 HSS/0 LSS.


Stable = straight
A disc claiming no turn needs to be very stable (see TeeBird). A disc rated at 0 turn and 0 fade should be extremely stable without being overstable.
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby jubuttib » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:15 am

Billym wrote:
jubuttib wrote:<Nitpick>Mako's are definitely meant to be mega stable if the ratings are to be believed. What they aren't meant to be is overstable in any way.</Nitpick>

How is 0 LSS mega stable? Pretty neutral rating 0 HSS/0 LSS.

I've always gone with the definition that handles overstability, stability and understability as different things. Hence "more stable" wouldn't mean "more overstable". A totally stable disc would be one that doesn't turn at all no matter how hard it's thrown and neither would it fade at the end of it's flight. It'd fly straight from start to finish, totally stable. If it faded, it'd be overstable, if it turned, it'd be understable. I do get caught up describing discs as "more stable" when I actually mean "more overstable", that sort of thing happens when pretty much nobody uses the same definition as I do. I use this definition, because otherwise we wouldn't have any need for the word "overstable".

So yeah, 0 LSS is definitely the most stable rating a disc can get. 1-5 HSS would be in the realm of overstability.

EDIT: ^^ What NoLifeLeft said.
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby Billym » Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:58 am

Stable yes but I disagree with the use of mega or extremely stable. In fact for straight shots off the tee I add hyzer if not the Mako will turn a bit at first. it has 0 LSS if it had 2 or more I would consider it very stable.
I guess I have a different "scale" of what stability is then you guys.
I still do not consider the Mako to be anything more than moderately stable. This is in terms of a DX Rancho being "very stable" and discs like gators and pigs are overstable...

Anyway the domey stars are way less stable. I have only thrown an X out Champion Mako once but it felt similar to the FRs.
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby jubuttib » Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:35 pm

Now you're just putting words in my mouth. As you might recall, I said "Mako's are definitely meant to be mega stable if the ratings are to be believed". Mako definitely doesn't have true 0 HSS, at least not if you put any power behind the throw. The Fuse is much closer, but even that has some turn (it's even rated at -2 by Latitude). The Mako is somewhat on the understable side, I think it's closer to -0.5 or -1 HSS and 0 LSS

A disc that had true 0 HSS and the 2 LSS you mention would be very slightly overstable. And as a side note, if the disc turns in the high speed portion of the flight, even having 10 LSS wouldn't stop it from doing that. LSS doesn't describe that part of the flight.

Also: Don't mind me, I'm just posting away to get closer to 1000 posts. =)
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby Billym » Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:25 am

A 0 lss 2 hss mid is a shark; more stable than any Mako I tossed.
I see what you are saying about 0 hss being stable in regards to discs that are -1 or less and yes lss has nothing to do with the HS part of the flight.
When you use the word "mega" you go down the wrong road. Maybe it is your miss use of the word not the LSS/HSS terms that are throwing me off. Mega means a lot, a ton, a sh*tload no less.
Anyway Makos are stable but not mega stable.
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby jubuttib » Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:40 am

Mako isn't mega stable, but as I said "Mako's are definitely meant to be mega stable if the ratings are to be believed". I never said that the Makos are mega stable, I just said that according to the ratings they're supposed to be, which you claimed isn't true. Hence the <nitpick></nitpick>.

LSS 2 isn't stable, it's overstable. Not much, but still overstable. 0 is the only true ("mega", "ultra", "hyper", etc.) stable rating for both LSS and HSS.
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby Flick4D » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:03 pm

In field practice the other day, I was thrilled with my 1st run star mako again. I threw my beat jk aviar high with a touch of anny, and it held that line to the ground. Then, I threw my Mako the exact same way, and it held the same line, and went 40 feet or so farther. The only reason I can think of for not carrying it in the bag more often, is that I'd rather sidearm those lines when it matters, or go right to throwing my esp xl. I want to use this disc more, just not sure where it'll happen. Maybe I'll have to take it for a flick test spin and see if it finds a place as right to left flick approach disc.
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby Billym » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:48 pm

Mega means highest level; is the Mako supposed to be of the highest level stability; no.
I get your knowledge of discs (perhaps) but this is obviously a translation thing; you are in Finland yes? Is English your first language? You are misusing the word mega.
Talked to some pros today and nobody agreed with you that 0 hss is mega anything....
Not trying to "nitpick". I now throw my Makos more than my Rocs during most rounds. I know Makos; they are not mega stable and innova never meant them to be; read their description.
We are now at the "beating a dead horse" stage so cheers. I'm out.
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Re: Innova Mako

Postby jubuttib » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:48 pm

It all depends on how you define stable. I've already explained my stance on that subject in a previous post. 0 HSS and 0 LSS is "mega stable" in the sense that it is the single most stable rating a disc can get. If either of those would be anything else than 0, it'd be leaning to the over- or understable side of the spectum. The Rocs ratings at 0 HSS and 3 LSS aren't the ratings of a stable disc, they're definitely the ratings of an overstable disc. My point in all of this was that "mega stable" doesn't mean that the disc is very overstable, more stable doesn't mean more overstable etc. Roc's rating at 3 LSS would be more overstable than the Coyote's at 1 LSS, but Coyote's would be more stable then the Roc's, and the Mako's rating at 0 LSS would be even less overstable than either the Roc or the Coyote, but more stable than either of those.

By no means do I imply that the Mako really flies like this, it's just the ratings that suggest it. No disc flies perfectly straight (stable) from start to finish without any turn or fade no matter the power applied. This would indeed be the holy grail of disc development.

Yeah, English is only a second language to me (well, third, technically), but you have to admit, I'm pretty good at it. ;) And I do know what the word mega means, this "argument" has been more about the meaning of the word "stable" vs. "overstable".

Billym wrote:We are now at the "beating a dead horse" stage so cheers. I'm out.

Aye, that we are, and have been for quite some time. Glad to end this. =)
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