Marking a Lie

[Chuck Kennedy]

New PDGA Rules School topic: http://www.pdga.com/marking-a-lie

[luke.baker]

Thanks that was informative for me.

I'm not sure I understand why mini-markers are used instead of regular discs as the marker. What's the motivation for having mini-markers in the first place and why can't you use a disc from your bag as a marker instead? (I realize it's against the rules; I'm just curious why the rules were written that way.)

[Chuck Kennedy]

Apparently, some early players in the 70s-80s (pre-minis) kept "forgetting" and sometimes flipped their disc more than one time to unfairly move forward. So using a mini was added to the rules. Plus mini discs fly and were/are cool.

[Parks]

I didn't see this addressed in the article, so I'll pose the question here.

Where is your lie when you don't use a mini marker disc?

Do you have 30 centimeters from the back of the disc, or 30 centimeters from the front of the disc?

In the first case, you can actually allow yourself to jump putt if the front of your disc is inside 10 meters, but the back of your disc is outside 10 meters.

In the second case, you gain a huge advantage on fairway drives by placing a marker disc. Without marking the disc, you would only have a 30cm minus the diameter of the disc to plant. You have more margin for error with a mini.

[Dig It]

Where is your lie when you don't use a mini marker disc?.

(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line
of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in
803.04 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc;
So yes there seems to be a scenario where the very front of your disc is inside 10M but the back (the part that counts) is not inside 10M.

My question is: At the last tourny I played the TD said it is in the rules that if you are inside the 10M circle you HAVE to use a mini to mark your lie. I've been looking around for this rule but cannot find it.

[Chuck Kennedy]

If you use your thrown disc as the marker, you have up to 30 cm behind it (back edge) to take your stance. If that back edge is outside 10m, you may follow thru after releasing your putt, even if the front edge of the disc is inside 10m. You do not have to use a mini inside 10m if your thrown disc is flat on the playing surface so it can be used as your marker.

[Dig It]

You do not have to use a mini inside 10m if your thrown disc is flat on the playing surface so it can be used as your marker.

Thanks for that Chuck. Freakin' Ronnie...

[Thatdirtykid]

You do not have to use a mini inside 10m if your thrown disc is flat on the playing surface so it can be used as your marker.

Thanks for that Chuck. Freakin' Ronnie...

Ronnie is a great guy, and has done quite a bit for the game for Colorado, but he sure does say/do some wacky shit.

[Parks]

If you use your thrown disc as the marker, you have up to 30 cm behind it (back edge) to take your stance. If that back edge is outside 10m, you may follow thru after releasing your putt, even if the front edge of the disc is inside 10m. You do not have to use a mini inside 10m if your thrown disc is flat on the playing surface so it can be used as your marker.

Okay, interesting. The rule is just unclear because it only talks about lie with regards to the marker disc, which I took to be different from a thrown disc. Thanks for clearing it up.

I believe this is the opposite of what Feldberg has been telling people at putting clinics. "Your lie is your lie, it doesn't change," to paraphrase from what I remember.

[some call me...tim?]

If you use your thrown disc as the marker, you have up to 30 cm behind it (back edge) to take your stance. If that back edge is outside 10m, you may follow thru after releasing your putt, even if the front edge of the disc is inside 10m. You do not have to use a mini inside 10m if your thrown disc is flat on the playing surface so it can be used as your marker.

Okay, interesting. The rule is just unclear because it only talks about lie with regards to the marker disc, which I took to be different from a thrown disc. Thanks for clearing it up.

I believe this is the opposite of what Feldberg has been telling people at putting clinics. "Your lie is your lie, it doesn't change," to paraphrase from what I remember.

I heard one of our local pros talking about hearing the same kind of thing from Feldberg. And of course, hearing it from Dave, he took it as being gospel (yet another case of a pro who doesn't bother to look up the rule himself). Kind of frustrating to have one of the top pros, PDGA board member, and professional instructor to be so belligerently mistaken.

[TobbeF]

Quotation from the rules school article:

On heavily wooded doglegs, the player has two options for marking and playing the lie. The more common definition for “line of play” is to estimate roughly the direction toward the basket, even if it can't be seen and there's no way to play on that line thru the woods. (...)The alternate interpretation currently accepted by the Rules Committee is to mark toward the intended “flight line of play” for the next throw which would be down the wooded fairway as if the dogleg corner were a mandatory, even if it isn’t.

Could someone please clarify when it would be allowed to mark toward the intended "flight line of play" instead of towards the basket? Who decides whether the hole currently being played is a "heavily wooded dogleg" or not? Does the TD have to sanction this for select holes in advance or is it up to the group to decide whether the hole qualifies? Or, do you always have the option to mark in the general direction of the continuing fairway whether the hole is considered a wooded dogleg or not?

Also, imagine a lie among the trees a fair distance off the intended fairway. From this lie there would be many straight lines to reach some part of the fairway being closer to the hole than the lie. Would this alternate marking still be allowed, with the player getting to choose from all the possible lines pointing at some part of the fairway?

In my opinion it would be a lot simpler to allow only one option for marking the lie, namely towards the basket (or the next mandatory if one exists)

[rehder]

Quotation from the rules school article:

On heavily wooded doglegs, the player has two options for marking and playing the lie. The more common definition for “line of play” is to estimate roughly the direction toward the basket, even if it can't be seen and there's no way to play on that line thru the woods. (...)The alternate interpretation currently accepted by the Rules Committee is to mark toward the intended “flight line of play” for the next throw which would be down the wooded fairway as if the dogleg corner were a mandatory, even if it isn’t.

In my mind, this is ridicolous and thats putting it mildly. But its cool it basically renders footfaults moot, because you can always stipulate that your "intended flight line of play" is backwards and hence you didnt footfault. Although you did happen to throw it in the wrong direction.
There should be one option (Line of play towards target or mandatory) and not two, which in this case renders another rule moot (foot faults).

[Chuck Kennedy]

Note that the RC has decided flight line of play is NOT an option any more and has reverted back to the LOP being required for marking the lie even on wooded doglegs. http://www.pdga.com/marking-a-lie

[TobbeF]

Note that the RC has decided flight line of play is NOT an option any more and has reverted back to the LOP being required for marking the lie even on wooded doglegs. http://www.pdga.com/marking-a-lie

This is good news, thank you

By the way, about the marking practise when mandatories are present from rule 8012.D:

When marking the lie, if the line of play does not pass to the correct side of the mandatory, then the mandatory itself shall be considered the hole for the application of all rules regarding stance, markers, obstacles, and relief. For the purposes of taking a legal stance, the mandatory object which has not yet been passed, and is nearest the tee, will be considered to be the hole.

Im not sure if this means that the player always should mark towards the nearest mandatory if one is present, or if it means that this should only be done in the cases where the line towards the basket does not pass the mandatory on the correct side (and hence if the line towards the basket does pass the mandatory on the correct side, the player should mark towards the basket, not the mandatory)?

[x-out]

You do not have to use a mini inside 10m if your thrown disc is flat on the playing surface so it can be used as your marker.

What if: the disc is "tombstoned"?

you mentioned flat, what exactly does that mean?