Cliff notes: I speculate that with enough late acceleration of the arm a delayed beginning of the disc pivot would add snap, D and straighten the flight. In order to delay the disc pivot a rear heavy power grip is needed like Dave suggests. And that is a timing issue again one which i don't recall Dave touching. I speculate that the rear of the hand needs to tighten up from just tight enough to not drop the disc during the elbow chop at the latest you test it for yourselves. Rear heavy power grip is really unpracticed for me so i don't have solid experiences of it. That needs to be practiced to give a more meaningful results based analysis vs the everything loose until the finger pinch during in the thumb lock in the final stage of the disc pivot.
I'm not sure if Dave went into enough detail. I recall he gave those numbers for grip strength but i don't recall him specifying when to to use that power. Is it initially before the arm moves, right pec, at the onset of wrist extension, at the beginning of the disc pivot where? Dunno. Avery Jenkins has a different take. If both are going for maximum disc pivot then i imagine that the point of Dave is to have the stronger rear of the hand pressure delaying when the disc starts to pivot while not impeding the pivot with too much finger pinch strength until the disc has had an unopposed motion from the center of the palm to where only the tips of the thumb and index finger touch the disc. And quoting masterbeato then pinching like a mothe... This kind of approach would seem logical if one can't delay the separation of the disc from the palm until the last inches of the arm pull before the arm is straight pointing at the target.
A stronger player like Avery Jenkins maybe able to delay the beginning of the disc pivot better with the Jenkins grip. I can't say if Avery is right about his analysis of his way having less friction between the disc and his hand. It is correct if the disc doesn't rip out off the base of the thumb and pinky through middle fingers so violently that the shape of the disc and the centrifugal force (is this the appropriate term here?) rips the disc cleanly and frictionless off the initial placement in the hand. A big if. There is certainly a lot of force on the disc with pro power and the disc does rip off of the thumb and the index finger but is the base of the thumb plus pinky to middle finger rip as clean as well? And the biggest question is is there a time difference between AJ and power grip and rear heavy (har har) and front heavy (tee hee) power grip. Of course the hand and finger strength of the player needs to be on the high side for best results. Why one may ask? Newton. Sir Isaac Newton or rather the laws of nature that he managed to describe. You generate more force from the disc pivot if you get it to equally high speed and spin rate in a shorter amount of time.
This is purely speculative now please feel free to enlighten me. I'm going from the assumption that if a theoretical player had near inifinite amount of hand and finger strength the the body mass x speed vectors generated kinetic energy and acceleration and speed would be transferred to the disc efficiently. Unlike for most if not all real players. Mafa said that he calculated what distance an adult would need to move in order to launch a disc at 30 meters per second if all the motion of the body could be transferred to the disc with perfect efficiency. He didn't quote the numbers he used but the magnitude is illuminating enough if he was right. He said that it took only two inches of body movement transferred perfectly to the disc to get the disc flying at 30 m/s. If correct that alone proves that the throw is made during the final inches of the arm motion and hand and finger strengths are keys to achieving distance. With those bases one could imagine that an infinitely strong handed and fingered player could delay the onset of the disc pivot ridiculously late in the arm swing. Because there would seem to be a lot of excess power being generated to make the disc fly at well over 30 m/s it seems that there is indeed a lot of force in a disc breaking the base of thumb plus pinky to middle finger lock which initiates the disc pivot. So i think it is indeed possible to have a clean and _later_ rip with the rear heavy power grip that still allows a (at least relatively) friction free disc pivot. How much does one gain from the delay of onset of disc pivot and how much the possible friction actually is is beyond my capabilities to measure or predict accurately.
Newton said that if in our case there is plenty of excess power being generated for getting a disc to fly fast and that we could increase the force on the disc by having the disc pivot occur later yet possibly (i can't prove that it would really happen physicists help please) achieving the same speed=accelerating more. Then the generated force would be higher force F=mass m(unchanging in our case) times acceleration a. Acceleration being the rate of change at which the speed increases. That would be the disc pivot for this small portion of the throw that i'm speculating on. I'm sure i used the term generated power wrong from physics stand point sorry. I mean the amount of work that the moving thrower generated prior to the disc leaving the base of the palm and everything added to that until the disc rips out of the thumb lock
None of this has touched on anatomy which changes things considerably in practice if more tendon bounce and mobility and looser muscles until later in the throw can be achieved with a larger radius of the disc pivot. I have with a different grip. Disc wing to rim corner at the outermost joints of the index and middle fingers thumb at a very unintuitively rear placement on top of the disc. Not easing up nose down issues. Proper thumb placement and strength has wild variations in nose angle. Too much power too early and the nose rises high easily. I imagine that this grip won't delay the onset of disc pivot as long as the rear heavy grip but it has a larger arc to travel so it may equal things out or rather acting as a longer lever my arm plus a few cms of the fingers magnify the rotating motion of the torso with a little longer lever. Adding power and speed the throw. In practice it is longer technique than a loose power grip back and front initially thumb locked late in the disc pivot with 0/100% back to front pressure once the disc has ripped off of the pinky to middle fingers.
Did you guys visiting Dave's clinic outside Helsinki hear more about the reasons for and timing of the 70%/30% rear to front power grip? What exactly did Dave tell about the which fingers pointing to which direction at the follow through at which time? I think you got more info than we at Helsinki did. I have nose down issues so more info would help. When i get the discs flying front below rear the apex is so low that the disc dives forward without fading at great speed to the ground at 300-340' usually. Front to rear height equal at similar or slightly higher apexes go beyond 400' with best throws plus skips.
uNicedmeMan wrote: Jeronimo wrote: turso wrote:
cornelius wrote:yeah at the clinic I went to he spent about 10 mins on driving and the rest about the push putt. which was a slight letdown to me considering that is the main reason i went. Jubuttib, what did he teach you guys at the clinic about driving?
The grip, of which the new part to me was that pinky to middle finger should have 70% of gripping power and 30% on index and thumb. He taught a run up which is better what I used to have. He mentioned wrist extension and such. Pretty much the same stuff people teach you here, reach back, pull tight and such.
I KNEW IT. All this time I've been trying to do like a 60/40 index&thumb to Pinky&Middle thinking I was ripping off the wrong fingers. I should have known better. Feldberg's breakdown of power % is just about exactly the grip weighting I've used since I learned about different grips. I think it was a big part of why I was able to learn to throw 400' much faster than the guys who introduced me to the sport.
Really? So the rip point on a drive is more in the back (middle to pinky) than the front (index and thumb)? This is contradictory to what I've always thought.
jubuttib wrote:What helped me with nose down issues (when I remember to do it, which I often don't) was to focus on my grip pressure and what my fingers do in the follow-through. I have a bad habit of applying about 30%/70% F/R pressure on the disc when putting, which leads to a lot of nose down. Feldberg said in his clinic that it should be more like 70/30, and focusing on that usually helps. I should do it more though, so that I don't have to focus on it too much.
The follow-through is another good point he mentioned. He said that you shouldn't keep your fingers pointing down in your follow through, but to let them turn up. This also does wonders for nose down issues for me.
So the opposite of the driving pressure?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.